switchers.. want v need - single pedal per loop v multiple etc

paulmapp8306

So, My board is coming together.   I am out of space point the board I bought lol - and a bigger one would really be too wide to fit where it sits.  Im forcing myself to stick with the board I have.  Some of the things I wanted to add - are only things Id use very rarely - an expression pedal for instance for use with the delay (to change repeats, or levels, or modulation etc).    I wanted a Phaser - but settles  for a mini MXR rather than the bigger pedal I really wanted.

Now - teh thing Im struggling with.

I have a Quartermaster 6 way.     The 8 was too long for the board.  So have 6 loops - BUT I have 9 pedals.   My OCD wants one loop per pedal....  

ow - some of that doent stop tap dancing - all 3 drive Pedals I have are duel drives - so Id still have to hot at least two buttons - the switcher then the pedal.   I also have 2 modulation pedal on one loop =- a phaser and a flanger.  They wouldnt be used together - so in a lop would be a single buton press - sharing means activating the loop THEN the relevant pedal.  

Of course I can pre-select things.  So select the drive combination I want then hit  the switcher button to engage.  Same with the modulation. and the main reason for the switcher (for me is to take things out of the signal chain when not being used.  

Now - a bigger board allows me at add a 4 way quartermaster which would allow 1 pedal per loop.  the gains stages still need channel selections but they can be one pedal per loop - so one side on all the time.  The mod pedals would then not need touching at all as both are single buttons.  I cant think of a way to separate at least the mod pedals without a bigger board though....

So - am I over thinking this..... Do I NEED to have each pedal in its own loop?  

If I keep as is Id have a compressor in its own loop,  all 3 drives in a loop, a tremolo in its own loop, 2 modulation pedals sharing a loop, then have my analogue and digital delays in their own loop,  I could separate the mod pedals and group the delays but I dont save anything. and Im more likely switching delays than even having a mod on (delay and reverb is 95% of my playing.....) 

If I could find a deeper board that was the same width - I would probably do that (using the extra depth to mount the quartermaster 4) but everything deeper is also wider form what Ive found so far. 

This is part of the analogue world I didnt miss with the fractal gear lol - and making changed costs - which it doesnt in a fractal rig.  that said once Its done and Im happy with the size, switching and layout its done.  

So - do I find a solution?  do I NEED to find a solution?  Is what I am doing perfectly fine?  any other suggestion to tackle this?  any recommendation for other boards (Looked at all the pedal train ones and the gig rig ones - though If went gig rig Ig go the whole G3s route and be done - which is too much money for now).  

thomasw88

I don't think I'm going to be any help but couple observations:

6 drive pedals (3x duals) seems a tad excessive!  you really need that many?  Even as a drive junkie I've never had any need for more than 4 into a clean amp.

Also.. what about a Strymon Mobius & Boss DD500/ strymon Time line  and then have a simple midi switcher to go through 'songs' for both.   (one control Gecko can send through patch changes to both in pre programmed list)

Finally doesn't sound like you're getting much benefit from using a loop switcher. 
 Benefit of loop switchers (basic ones) are a) it avoids tap dancing and b)clears up your signal.. 

Doesn't sound like you're avoiding tap dancing

  I'm going to guess your pedals are on the  more boutique side so shouldn't be overly  noisy/tone sucky so in that case what actual benefit are you getting re the signal.  I ran a 10-15 pedalbaord for best part of 20 years (different pedals) and tbh I think I had 5 or 6 failures in that time on a gig.  

paulmapp8306

I deliberately didnt go for a 3Gs - to stop the tap dancing.  they are a lot of outlay (given what Ive spend so far was a bit too far).  The reason is to keep the signal as  clean as possible.  I can tell the tonal The difference between having the 3 drive pedal loop active (but pedal off) and inactive.  There is a slight top end roll off.  I have no issue having the simpler switcher (teh Quartermasters can never help the tap dancing thing - as there not programable).  Its if I need one loop per pedal (and therefore more loops) or if Im OK as I am.

Re - Drives.  I dont think 6 gain stagea re too much.  They actually serve different purposes.

RC Boost is low gain, neutral gain boosts (2 levels)
Keeley Minstrel is 21 stages of valve pre - think of that as adding more channels to the amp.
Broadcast AP-ii which is a silicon side and a germanium side - distortion into fuzz territory.

Essentially the broadcast and keeley are never on together - they serve totally different purposes.   the RC boost is used with the amp alone, and with both other drive pedals.

I knew I wanted an RC boost prom my pre axe-FX days but didnt realise the v2s have 2 footswitch able levels.   I knew I wanted a Kingsley - though the page was what I had in mind, but the minstral came up used at a good price - so in effect the "plan" had 2 stages there but I ended up with 4.   The Broadcast was s surprise. I went in thinking Protine but the blue side was very like the RC in higher boost territory and teh green side like the kingsley.  Shop suggested trying the Broadcast and the shear size and weight of the drive just won me over.  

I am still testing....  Ive already changed a delay and reverb as I didnt make the right choice.  It may be I do the same with the drives. The RC boost stays - but I may let with the broadcast or Minstral go.  If I do though - Id bring in replacements.  Its about tonal pallets for me not gain stages - so possibly bring in say a clone type and a high gain type (like the SLO single pedal) on place of one of those duels. 

Ultimately - right now its all new, and over time I will gravitate to certain pedals/combs and Ill know if something needs to change.

UnclePsychosis

With a handful of exceptions I think that, for the most part, loop switchers are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist and which are only "a thing" as a reason to sell more stuff to gear heads. I wouldn't bother, myself. 

pt22

UnclePsychosis said:

With a handful of exceptions I think that, for the most part, loop switchers are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist and which are only "a thing" as a reason to sell more stuff to gear heads. I wouldn't bother, myself. 

I found it helpful. A previous iteration of my board experienced tone suck with about 8 high-quality pedals. 

OP, you’re asking for a few competing things at once. It would help to understand if you’re gigging with this board or jamming at home. That may help tailor replies. 

paulmapp8306

pt22 said:

UnclePsychosis said:

With a handful of exceptions I think that, for the most part, loop switchers are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist and which are only "a thing" as a reason to sell more stuff to gear heads. I wouldn't bother, myself. 

I found it helpful. A previous iteration of my board experienced tone suck with about 8 high-quality pedals. 

OP, you’re asking for a few competing things at once. It would help to understand if you’re gigging with this board or jamming at home. That may help tailor replies. 

This - unless things change - is a 100% pure indulgent at home pleasure thing.  I havent gigged in a long time as a guitarist - only as a keys player.  Its why Im not bothered about a solo boost into an already on the edge amp.

So - the live complex switching thing isnt needed.  The only reason for the Quartermaster is to keep not on pedals out of that signal chain to preserve as much of the signal as possible.   This is why the key question is how many in a single loop before Its defeating the point.  ie If I had (I dont but for arguments sake) 4 pedals in each loop - and I engage 2 loops - thats 8 pedals it  the chain  for only 2 effects in use.  At that point using teh switcher is pointless as Id be getting the signal loss/degrading issue anyway. BUT If 2 in a loop - maybe 3 - isnt a problem - so those same 2 effects only put 4 pedals in teh chain then Im happy to route in that way.  Obviously its ideal to have on pedal per loop - and I have no issues making that happen if theres a definitely benefit there - the issue is the pedalboard itself...  Finding one that's not too wide - yet is deep enough to fit the extra switcher Id need to put one pedal per loop.

I dont intend to add any more really - maybe ONE extra drive for a specific high gain, instrumental rock type tone BUT, teh 10 I have is where I wanted to be.   Assuming at some point I did add that other pedal that would be 11 loops needed.   As IU have a Q6 - getting  2nd Q6 mounted one behind the other gives me 1 pedal per loop - and all the switching along the front.   Drives behind as their duel pedals - and tap tempo pedals behind.  Anything not tap or duel under a lid (if the right board has that, which it may).

for me - this is about a versatile but as compact as possible setup, with a 100% analogue dry path, and as pure a signal as possible when pedals arnt in use.

If I DID start gigging again as a guitarist - I would build a smaller board on the one I have, with a single 6 way switcher and selected pedals needed for the project, OR use the Axe-FX rig is it was more function/general covers that needed lots of options, and potentially a quiet stage (though the direct out of the amp is very good - so that wouldnt actually be an issue using the analogue rig)

Jonathanthomas83

I’m unable to respond in full as I’m out and about but came here to say that if you want more drives, have them and my 2 pence is that if you’re going through the effort, and you deem looper’s necessary, spend the extra to have 1 pedal per loop, imo. For the “at home pleasure” thing, it makes sense and it makes life easier and removes any doubt or second guessing about the situation. I’m jealous, I’m in your exact position (drives ‘n’ all) and can’t wait to get my QMXs!

pt22

So I’m probably in a similar situation. I’ve not gigged for over a decade, and that part of my life is probably not going to resurface. Yet I still have some lovely boutique pedals and a board I want to build up presenting as much fidelity as possible. 

I think you’re going to find yourself compromising more than you like if you’re limited by space and loops. I can only recommend what I did. Buy the QMX8 and a larger board. I went with Pedaltrain Novo 24. The QMX8 fits perfectly and there of plenty of room for all pedals in the loops and a few utility pedals.

Otherwise I’d consider an HX One in place of some of the modulation pedals, and potentially moving the Minstrel after the QMX and use it like an amp. Those don’t make a massive impact on your loop usage though. Good luck. 

paulmapp8306

pt22 said:

So I’m probably in a similar situation. I’ve not gigged for over a decade, and that part of my life is probably not going to resurface. Yet I still have some lovely boutique pedals and a board I want to build up presenting as much fidelity as possible. 

I think you’re going to find yourself compromising more than you like if you’re limited by space and loops. I can only recommend what I did. Buy the QMX8 and a larger board. I went with Pedaltrain Novo 24. The QMX8 fits perfectly and there of plenty of room for all pedals in the loops and a few utility pedals.

Otherwise I’d consider an HX One in place of some of the modulation pedals, and potentially moving the Minstrel after the QMX and use it like an amp. Those don’t make a massive impact on your loop usage though. Good luck. 

Id need the QMX10 for a loop each though....  I looked at the Novo 24 but  its too wide to fit really.  And I wouldnt get the QMx10 in.   Because of the bars on the pedal trains I cant easily mount a 4 above a 6 - which was my initial plan.  

If I go the extra switcher Id go for a 2nd 6 - so Id have the 10 I need plus a couple of spares.   In truth only 2 boards would fit that - either a Gigrig one - though they are a flat base and I dont think they do "risers" to mount back to back QMx - there designed for the G series... There is a Schmidt Array.....  They do a perfect sized one, Quartermaster risers for a pair, the patchbays that the gigrig doesnt, and Id have loops and space for an extra drive, and an EQ.  BUT they get silly money lil - like £1000+ for the setup.

Hey ho - with a nearing £6k amp and pedal rig that is probably justifiable.... though Id have to wait.  Waiting isnt bad either in truth - I can get to know what I have properly,   so any ins/out/tinkering can be done in that time.
I did think about the Kingsley post loops - but that (without the more stage) into the Broadcast (Silicon side) is a thing of beauty.....putting the broadcast into the kinsgley isnt the same.

Fez

You could make your own board to fit the space you have available.

What about trying a buffer to deal with the tone suck?

LukeFRC

What’s at the start and end of the chain? Is anything on a lot and bypass not too bad? Why not stick it before or after the looper? 

paulmapp8306

LukeFRC said:

What’s at the start and end of the chain? Is anything on a lot and bypass not too bad? Why not stick it before or after the looper? 

Doesnt really solve anything I dont think.   There is a tune Ive put pre loop.  It is buffered and does help the tone loss.  Even that niggles me though lol.  I can live with it.

The board itself, as it stands, looper/switcher aside id nice.   Does everything I really need to high quality.

There is a small boost I had thought to use as a solo lift - but it doesnt fit with the little phaser and at home I dont need that function.   IF nI gig I may, but its likely the phaser could come off.... OF I just stick it off board post switcher for those off occasions - and in fact an EQ is probably better at that job as theres only a small clean lift available, and the EQ would push the right freq as well..  There is the "want" for a dedicated, tight high gain pedal (rather than stacking drives) for instrumental rock type stuff.   Thinking the SLO Pedal (the single channel not the plus) or a Suhr Riot maybe, but thats a small thing really.

IF I cave, and add a second looper - The EQ/Boost - that last drive pedaL and the tuner would all have dedicated loops - though the tuner may stay pre dependant on the tone issues with lots of loops engages (though at that point your changing the signal so much its likely not noticeably).  Thats solution satisfies the engineer, perfectionist and OCD in me.

paulmapp8306

Fez said:

You could make your own board to fit the space you have available.

Hum....  Im really not good at that sort of thing, though possibly.   That said Im not a fan of wood pedalboards - preferring light metal ones....    which isnt as easy to do.

CarbonCopy

How about a second smaller board in front of, behind or even on top of (I.e. Raised above) your current board? If you are using a loop switcher for every pedal, then presumably you don't need to use the footswitches on at least some of the pedals, so if they are further away or not easily accessible, it won't matter.  

Without seeing photos of your current set up to understand why there are size limitations, it's difficult to suggest solutions that will work.

I had a Quartermaster before when I had a larger board (can't remember if it was the 6 loop or 8 loop one). It was useful as there is some "programming" you can do so that one loop will switch off when you switch another on. Also, I was using a couple of old 80s pedals (MXR Phase 100 and Boss CE2) which noticeably altered the tone when off but still in the chain. 

I've simplified my board since as I've come to the conclusion that I don't need dozens of different sounds for a gig or playing at home, and especially don't need to drastically change a sound during a song so much that I would be needing to press multiple pedals between a verse and chorus for example. On the rare occasions I do need a drastic change of sound, I'll use the HX Stomp that's on the board mainly for delay and subtle reverb (and speaker IR when going direct to the PA) to add whatever is needed as it can be programmed as required for that song. 

paulmapp8306

Ooooh....  I have a working plan....

So - the Novo 18 is the same wide as what I have, but 5cm deeper.... a QMX4 - which ive ordered B Stock gives me 10 loops.  Thats enough for one loop per pedal INCLUDING both the boost and Phaser.   using the extra depth created next to the 4 way switcher I can get both on the board.  

Ive ordered 2 metal plates..  Both 2mm deep, both 400mm long - (which is the width of the gap between the pedal train bars).  One 50mm deep and one 30mm deep.  So I glue those two together, then glue from the underneath so the narrower bar sits in the gap.  This will create a place to mount the 4 was switcher and one of those small pedals.  

Ill have the classic Jnr board I wont need - but Im guessing thats a fairly way shift used.   not a massive issue that. 

So - another week wait for those bits (as I can only have deliveries weekends) before finished pics - but should work well.  Also means not tempted with  adding more just because I have space.... which is not a bad thing lol.  

Jonathanthomas83

Please post pics once done, intrigued to see you get on

jeztone2

I use a pedal train Jr sized board. But I have all my wet effects on a switchable loop. This used to be a Boss Line Selector, but for the last five years has been a Bright Onion Trails looper. 

I’d love something simple like a boss ms3 but without FX, but nobody seems to make it. I always hoped The Gigrig would make a Quartermaster that you could program up. Not all of us want or like endless options.

stickyfiddle

In 20 years doing daft shit with pedals I've never once seriously considered a switcher. If I'm not getting paid multiple hundreds a night and playing multiple nights a week I don't see any value in it

Boromedic

Conversely to some of the other thoughts on here, I wouldn't be without my Disaster Area DPC 5 as the midi capability means I can switch drive, chorus, delay and reverb with one switch. Tap dancing whilst bearable is annoying and in my current project would be too much. I tried a simple switcher like the Quartermaster but find the full programmable switchers with midi way more useful.

The switchers you mention also allow you to put pedals out the way but still access them, which is useful on a larger board.

NickBotfield

stickyfiddle said:

in 20 years doing daft shit with pedals

I found this phrase delightful!

Bowks

paulmapp8306 said:

Ooooh....  I have a working plan....

So - the Novo 18 is the same wide as what I have, but 5cm deeper.... a QMX4 - which ive ordered B Stock gives me 10 loops.  Thats enough for one loop per pedal INCLUDING both the boost and Phaser.   using the extra depth created next to the 4 way switcher I can get both on the board.  

Ive ordered 2 metal plates..  Both 2mm deep, both 400mm long - (which is the width of the gap between the pedal train bars).  One 50mm deep and one 30mm deep.  So I glue those two together, then glue from the underneath so the narrower bar sits in the gap.  This will create a place to mount the 4 was switcher and one of those small pedals.  

Ill have the classic Jnr board I wont need - but Im guessing thats a fairly way shift used.   not a massive issue that. 

So - another week wait for those bits (as I can only have deliveries weekends) before finished pics - but should work well.  Also means not tempted with  adding more just because I have space.... which is not a bad thing lol.  

A few US builders, such as my chums at XTS, now deck the tops of Pedaltrains with lamintaed Hexagrip tops. Sadly no-one over here does and Swanflight weren't too open to sending out a precut topper. 

Anyone with a garage and the requisite power tools fancy starting a side hustle?!