Lead channel / boost just not boosting enough

Col_Decker

Help fellas, some fault finding wisdom and guidance is required for getting my solo boost to cut thru.

I'm using an Orange OR30 with a Helix LT, using 4 cable method with delays and reverbs in the amp FX loop.The OR30 is single channel but has 2 switchable volume controls so I've been setting one level for normal, and the switched level turned right up for the solos. But its just not cutting it. (Normal at 11 o'clock, solo at 4 o'clock).

Tried using valve driver boost in the Helix in the FX loop too, same result. Its there but its not "boom have that ya bastards".


Obs when I try it home at home levels all is good, only happens at gig volume. Any advice? Could it be a bad valve in the power amp section?

Jonathangus

For a lead boost, you generally want a clean boost in the loop, preferably with a push in the mids - an EQ is good for this.

Also, the boosted level at gig volume may be merely compressing the output stage, adding distortion but not getting much louder.  Adding a drive in the loop will have a similar effect, and can cause damage (paging @ICBM ;; )

Also - radical suggestion, I know - but maybe get the rhythm player to turn down during the solo?

Col_Decker

Aye I thought it might be due to just adding more compression as I turned up, hence my thinking a power tube might be dying. I've an old MXR Micro Amp lying around so will try that at the end of the FX loop.

ecc83

"Solo boost not melting punter's ears" is a real old chestnut and the physics is always the same. If your 'chugging' volume is getting through over drums, bass et al then for a solo to really kick A you need about 3 times the power from the amp. Just pushing gain up won't do it, as has already been said, you are just making more output stage distortion. (AKA "compression!")

Think of Duke Ellington? When the guitarist did a  bit of business, the rest of them SHUT THE F UP! Maybe  a drift with brushes on the drums and the Duke tickled ivories inbetween phrases. 

Dave.

fastonebaz

I use a TC electronic spark mini in my fx loop and I get access to a  massive volume boost at gigs if I want but I usually set the boost dial just below 9 o clock so its perhaps only 20% of its potential.  Works flawlessly. 

ecc83

The Orange 30 is a 4 X EL84 amp and despite their hype it will NOT equal the SPL of a good 100W valve amp. 

I have measured a very good 30W EL84 amp and yes, it IS 'king loud but I have also  measured a very good 100W (EL34s) amp and it is significantly louder! 

In a typical band situation I would expect a 30W EL84 amp, running clean to be close to its limit and pushing it harder just gets you a few more watts but much more harmonics, especially so if the Orange is cathode biased which I assume it is? 

Fixed bias will get you a few more clean watts, depending on design but  nowhere close to 100 IMHO. 

Dave.

Col_Decker

Yeah its cathode bias. We always mic the guitars thru the PA so it only needs to be loud enough for stage volume. Its not played clean though, I get all the gain from the amp, gain set around 2 o'clock. Tone is exactly what I want, rhythm is fat and feeds back when needed and if I want to clean up I roll back on the guitar volume.

webrthomson

Mike Soldano was always a proponent of having your lead sound to be 100% of the amp up full volume and backing that off with something in the loop to say 70% for your rhythm tone. 

I used to do this with a Morley volume pedal in the loop as it has a minimum volume (rhythm tone volume) and kicking it forward was lead volume – always worked like a charm for me!

Jonathangus

webrthomson said:

Mike Soldano was always a proponent of having your lead sound to be 100% of the amp up full volume and backing that off with something in the loop to say 70% for your rhythm tone. 

I used to do this with a Morley volume pedal in the loop as it has a minimum volume (rhythm tone volume) and kicking it forward was lead volume – always worked like a charm for me!

I'm guessing that's more-or-less what the switchable master volume is doing.

ICBM

Basically it sounds like your rhythm sound is using most of the amp’s available output power, so adding the boost just makes it compress more rather than get louder, because there’s no more power available.

Two things might work…

Swap the rectifier valve for a solid-state plug-in - not a valve-emulating one! - that will give a tiny bit more headroom and reduce the compression slightly. (In my opinion Orange amps should always have SS rectifiers - valve ones just cause mush with them, which the sound inherently tends to a bit anyway.)

Instead of a level boost, use an EQ with the mids and especially the upper mids boosted, and possibly the bass even pulled back a bit - that will both increase the perceived volume since the ear is most sensitive in the upper mids, and actually increase the physical volume slightly since the amp isn’t having to work as hard to produce as much low end, so more power is available where it’s more useful.

And if that fails just get an OR120 .

Nerine

Yeah, nothing much to add other than maybe trying the “antiboost” method that’s already been mentioned. 

I have a 30w SLO and it definitely has ample headroom, so hopefully you’ll be able to get something useable about of the Orange. 

Alternatively, if everything’s going to FOH then maybe improve monitoring so the amp doesn’t have to work *quite* as hard. That’ll likely help matters too… 

EricTheWeary

My Lionheart was like that. Could run out of headroom at gig level so stomping on an OD didn't make things louder. Depended on what gig level was of course and fine at times, no headroom at others. Doing pub gigs with no guitar through the PA it was needs must; if you are mic'd up and through the PA you could just turn the amp down enough to where the boost works. 

guitarmangler

Don’t boost the volume for the solo, attenuate the main sound for the rhythm. It’s the same principle, but without adding any gain.

In the helix, set up a gain block for your fx loop with a minus setting and switch it off for your solo.
 
You could also snapshot it to add a tubescreamer or eq in front of the amp at the same time. 

Danny1969

You can make an antiboost with a can of tuna, a footswitch, a pot and one guitar lead. I did a few gigs with mine before I built a more uniform looking pedal. 



The lead is a bit of mic cable. That can be common earthed the other end and one signal is the send, the other the return. 

Wire the pot the same as you would a single pickup guitar with one volume going to the jack socket

Wire the footswitch so it's either sending the pot wiper to the output or the end of the pot taper to the output 



Here's a version that expands the idea to 2 volumes, one for normal  and one for boost. I like this as you can then adjust the volume of the non boosted without walking back to the amp. 




Neither pedal needs power unless you want the LED to work. 

Col_Decker

Cheers all. Not got a gig until next Friday so I’m going to set my rig up differently to try out some those ideas.

helix fx loop with a EQ as a solo boost, and with and EQ plus compressor as the boost.

Then an MXR micro amp in the fx loop. And finally setting solo lead level with the amp switcher, then reducing for the rhythm sound. 

I should be able to try all three on the night, and there’s no pressure quite like experimenting in front of a crowd 

Kebabkid

Find the Xotic EP Boost in the Helix (Kinky Boost) and try that in the loop and see if there's a difference

MaxA867

Don’t know if this applies to your rig or not but hopefully it helps someone! But if you happen to have one in your FX loop then some of the higher end delay and reverbs have a hidden boost in them so you can achieve this without an extra pedal. I’ve used a Strymon Timeline, a Source Audio Ventris and an SA Collider to do this, Timeline will give you +3db and Ventris/Collider +6db I just have a solo delay/reverb patch where I crank the boost, kick it in and away you go! 

Littlejonny

You just need to make your rhythm sounds quieter.

turn down your rhythm sound, the FOH engineer will turn you up (also in the monitors) and boom…big solo.

If your amp is too quiet at this point - stand closer to it or point it right at you like a monitor.

Col_Decker

Lads lads the collective wisdom cracked it.

Of the options I tried, the MXR micro amp at the end of the FX loop into the amp was the one. Stepped on it and BOOM "have that ya bastards". I also was able to turn up / down the level with my foot as needed. 

Also tried a Helix compressor as boost in the FX loop, worked OK but not quite enough but will keep it as a semi-boost.
Then tried an EQ and Clean boost paired together in the FX loop, but I didn't like that, sounded too thin but that was probably due to the way I'd EQ'd it. But will scrap that idea to free up a button the Helix.

I'd planned on dropping the amp's channel switcher too as it would be redundant, but I decided to keep that in, just set closer to the main volume so I can use it to lift the volume to compensate for when I roll back the guitar volume to clean up. Which tbh is probably what it was designed for rather than a solo boost.

pintspiller

I had the same problem with a Laney AOR30 combo years and years ago. My rhythm sound was on the crunch+ side and no extra volume when I engaged the boost channel.

I concluded the amp just wasn't load enough and that my loudest sound should be the amp's loudest and to turn down for the less loud channel.

I never tried an EQ pedal with that set up, but have used it recently while playing bass for the likes of The Chain outro. However, my amp is not at its loudest and I also had a DI into the PA.