Age ratings on games/films

holnrew

I don't like it when the baddies are animals, it makes me feel mean. I get upset whenever my horse dies in Red Dead Redemption.

Axe_meister

Question. Would you let a 9 year old watch blues brothers.
I would but the mrs won't

RobDavies

Axe_meister said:

Question. Would you let a 9 year old watch blues brothers.
I would but the mrs won't

Yes - no problem.   I also have a nine year old - albeit a very mature one (if you can be mature at nine?!).

As far as I can remember isn't there just a bit of swearing when they go and see the penguin?   I reckon our kids will hear just as bad in the playground....

Axe_meister

Yep my thoughts exactly

jonnyburgo

Aretha Franklin says "SHEEIT"

RobDavies

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080455/parentalguide?ref_=tt_ql_7

daveyh

RobDavies said:

My eldest is thirteen and plays GTA, COD etc etc.  I have no problem with it as he pretty much self censors himself anyway.   He won't watch anything that's the slightest bit "jumpy".   Super 8 scared the life out of him and he has steered well clear of The Woman In Black - despite his younger brother watching it, and enjoying it.

 

Mine too, he wasn't interested in Mass Effect becasue of the 'husks' that run at the screen.He has no interest in any filem that is potentially scary unless it's a super hero thing.

Virtually every kid in his year at school plays GTA.  He'd be an outcast if he didn't - same as those kids when I was at school who weren't allowed to watch Grange Hill or The Young Ones.....

Oh, how we laughed at them.

Exactly.

The potential damage of alienation from peer group is distinctly unpleasant and can have repercussions for the rest of a child life. Much better to educate in the first instance.

roundthebend

Some really good points coming through here, thanks for contributing.

On the subject of peer group alienation and the damage it can do - I am concerned about that, but I'm also concerned about the damage of both exposing my kids to unsuitable material and by teaching them that they should do the same as others to avoid being ridiculed.

I actually think there is a valuable lesson to be had in teaching my kids to appreciate that they can be different, they can make their own choices, and that they should think through problems to find out what is at the root of it rather than dealing with a symptom. Basically, if we believe the game is unsuitable, but we don't want him to be alienated, then what does it teach him if we give in and let him play? Even if we try to teach him how to deal with our concerns, my feeling is that it's something which is too difficult to teach without time and experience.....which is why the rating is 18.

[EDIT] - I started to write out some thoughts which are probably a bit too abstract to be of value here, where the sentence above sums it up nicely. If the above doesn't make sense then I'll happily go into more detail to explain my thinking.

daveyh

roundthebend said:

Some really good points coming through here, thanks for contributing.

On the subject of peer group alienation and the damage it can do - I am concerned about that, but I'm also concerned about the damage of both exposing my kids to unsuitable material and by teaching them that they should do the same as others to avoid being ridiculed.

Some questions:

1. What do you consider 'unsuitable'? Are your values the same as your childs?

2. Is your child unable to differentiate between what is right/wrong or rea/fantasy?
3. Are you happy to accept that if they are getting ridiculed your child will likely go against your wishes when your aren't around?

4. How old is the child?

I actually think there is a valuable lesson to be had in teaching my kids to appreciate that they can be different, they can make their own choices, and that they should think through problems to find out what is at the root of it rather than dealing with a symptom.

 

Absolutely. But they are still part of a peer group that can be pretty vicious and they need to survive within it. Different is good, but they will still need to be accepted in some way.

 

Basically, if we believe the game is unsuitable, but we don't want him to be alienated, then what does it teach him if we give in and let him play? Even if we try to teach him how to deal with our concerns, my feeling is that it's something which is too difficult to teach without time and experience.....which is why the rating is 18.

 

The 18 rating can be for a variety of reasons. Which game are we talking about? Personally I don't have a problem with games with swearing as he'll be hearing just as bad all day at school. Crime isn't a big deal as I know my son and am pretty sure he isn't robbing banks. Deadspace isn't on the agenda though.

 

I don't think 'giving in' is really the way to think about it. It's more about about seeing things from the viewpoint of the child and understanding that a as parents sometimes we have to do things that aren't going to sit too well with our own beliefs.

roundthebend

Specifically, this came up because of GTA V but we've had similar dilemmas around Black Ops 2 and Assassins Creed.

1. Unsuitable is hard for me to define. Swearing, shooting, and crime in games is quite OK with me. I think I just have trouble with extremely brutal scenes - torture or terror or evil. I suppose it's more about the mentality of the content rather than the images - so if the scene has some really nasty meaning behind it then I worry that my son won't understand that message and will instead just enjoy the moving images and become desensitised to the underlying story.

2. My son (even my younger 11 year old son) is quite able to distinguish between right and wrong for things they know about and subjects they can comprehend. But they shouldn't know enough about the world of drug smuggling to know about all the intricate sub-stories that relate - violent crime, people trafficking, prostitution etc. So, when they see someone being tied up and tortured to extract some information, how can they decide whether it's right or wrong? I mean, it's generally not a nice thing to do, but does it depend on the motives? It's too complex for a child, who doesn't (shouldn't) have enough context, to come to a sensible conclusion about.

3.My eldest son especially, and my younger son to a high degree, are very respectful of our morals and ethics. My eldest son, for example, gets mocked by his friends for picking up litter during school lunch hour. We don't teach him that, but we've obviously taught him to respect his surroundings enough that he feels compelled to do it. He even tells his friends not to drop litter, and to not spit unnecessarily. And he tells his friends and their parents that he's not allowed to play on certain games or watch certain films. That may well change as he gets older and more frustrated by our rules, but I'm hoping that he has the respect to talk to us about it in a grown up way. That's what we encourage and it seems to be working.

4. He's nearly 14. And I'd say he's nearly old enough to play GTA V and watch some 18 films. He's really mature for his age, but not 18 year old mature yet.


If, as you say, we have to go against our beliefs then what is the point of having those beliefs? Come to think of it, what is the point of being a parent if you aren't going to instill some of the thinking behind your beliefs into your children?

Myranda

While the damage peer pressure can cause is something to consider... so is teaching them that giving into peer pressure is fine.

Oh no little Johnny will get taunted if I continue to have the convictions I have and stand by them - much better I teach them to cave at the first sign of opposition.

Peer pressure is a terrible reason to give in.

However - never say to your kids "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?" because if everyone they knew was jumping off a bridge there might be a damned good reason - fire, godzilla, alien death ray, zombies shambling along bridge... it's a terrible metaphor.

holnrew

I plan on saying "if your friend asked you to let him shit in your mouth, would you?"

daveyh

 

roundthebend said:

Specifically, this came up because of GTA V but we've had similar dilemmas around Black Ops 2 and Assassins Creed.

1. Unsuitable is hard for me to define. Swearing, shooting, and crime in games is quite OK with me. I think I just have trouble with extremely brutal scenes - torture or terror or evil. I suppose it's more about the mentality of the content rather than the images - so if the scene has some really nasty meaning behind it then I worry that my son won't understand that message and will instead just enjoy the moving images and become desensitised to the underlying story.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I see you use the word 'evil'. Do your views have a relgious foundation?

 

2. My son (even my younger 11 year old son) is quite able to distinguish between right and wrong for things they know about and subjects they can comprehend. But they shouldn't know enough about the world of drug smuggling to know about all the intricate sub-stories that relate - violent crime, people trafficking, prostitution etc. So, when they see someone being tied up and tortured to extract some information, how can they decide whether it's right or wrong? I mean, it's generally not a nice thing to do, but does it depend on the motives? It's too complex for a child, who doesn't (shouldn't) have enough context, to come to a sensible conclusion about.

Torturing someone to find out information that would be to the benefitof all is a moral dilemma that is argued over by professionals and lay people of all ages (my psychology degree spent enough time on it LOL).

 

It's easily possible to graduate the imparting of knowledge of an unpleasant context appropriate to the age of a child, from 'don't do this because it's bad and you'll get in trouble' through to an empathy for the victim. But if you don't educate on the context they'll have less tools to be able to deal with it. A game like GTA is an oppurtunity not to promote violence, but to discuss the 'wrongness' of it.

 

3.My eldest son especially, and my younger son to a high degree, are very respectful of our morals and ethics. My eldest son, for example, gets mocked by his friends for picking up litter during school lunch hour. We don't teach him that, but we've obviously taught him to respect his surroundings enough that he feels compelled to do it. He even tells his friends not to drop litter, and to not spit unnecessarily. And he tells his friends and their parents that he's not allowed to play on certain games or watch certain films. That may well change as he gets older and more frustrated by our rules, but I'm hoping that he has the respect to talk to us about it in a grown up way. That's what we encourage and it seems to be working.

4. He's nearly 14. And I'd say he's nearly old enough to play GTA V and watch some 18 films. He's really mature for his age, but not 18 year old mature yet.

TBH, at that age he's probably a lot more aware of things than you give him credit for. He *will* be exposed to things you don't like through his friends and there is definitely a view that you are doing him a disservice.

 
If, as you say, we have to go against our beliefs then what is the point of having those beliefs? Come to think of it, what is the point of being a parent if you aren't going to instill some of the thinking behind your beliefs into your children?

As a parent it's not your responsibility to recreate your own beliefs in your children.

 

 

Myranda said:

While the damage peer pressure can cause is something to consider... so is teaching them that giving into peer pressure is fine.

Oh no little Johnny will get taunted if I continue to have the convictions I have and stand by them - much better I teach them to cave at the first sign of opposition.

Peer pressure is a terrible reason to give in.

 

It is, but you also have to understand that in a context like this there are repercussions that can reach far beyond whether a parent agrees with a game content. The extreme stereotype is the isolated emo kid who takes his guns to school or is found on a rope.

PolarityMan

I think one thing worth re-iterating here that someone else raised is that games (and to some extent films) are far more realistic than they have ever been.

While I played violent games like doom and the original wolfenstein from about 10 ish and I don't think they have had any detrimental effect I do wonder if the lifelike nature of modern games would mean that they have a greater effect. 

FWIW Im not a parent but I'm kind of falling in the evaluating things on a case-by-case basis camp.

roundthebend

I'm not religious. I've got very strong morals and ethics which are similar to those taught by religions. By "evil" I meant an action which is carried out with "extreme and intentional malice, perhaps to a level beyond what could be justified by the motivating factors". Oooh, get me!

I knew that bit about "recreating your own beliefs in your children" would bite me. I don't want create clones of myself, but I want my kids to have strong ethics and morals which they use to guide them through life. The ones I use are generic enough to apply to most people, so it then comes down to subjective decisions. I strongly believe that kids shouldn't have to deal with the complex detail of serious crime, terrorism, sexual abuse and various other things until they've learned about empathy and considering all the details. At a young age, kids will often find something comical about those subjects and may grow up with only that view.

If we were just telling our son that he couldn't play these games and to stop nagging us, then I'd take your point about him reacting to that stance. But I take a very active approach to explaining to him what the reasons are and then, as you can see, I go out and try to understand opposing views with the open mind that I might change my opinion. He's aware that I'm doing this research because I told him that I know I could be wrong, but right now I've not seen a strong enough reason for me to reconsider. Most of what has been brought up has already entered my mind and I've processed it and found that it doesn't alter the basic decision.