Why doesn't this work? (Timing issue)

Haych

I am trying to record a demo of a song I've had floating around in my head for donkeys years.  Everything is going well until it comes to the second part of the bridge, which is just four chords.

Played solo it sounds fine, but even trying to play along with a click track it just doesn't work and I can't fathom why.

If I play just the chords, it works, but there's something weird happening with the timing during/after the slide up to the D from the C when I add the arpeggiated notes.

Click here to hear my shite playing

viz

I think it's fine. If you count semiquavers, the slide-up to the D happens on the 7th SQ of the previous bar, then the notes you're playing on that D are on SQ 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the last bar. 

It's a bit different from the 2nd bar, the Am, in which the notes are on SQ 5, 6 and 7.

So on the D your notes start a SQ earlier.

Haych

Thanks Viz, maybe I just need to try harder then.

Whenever I try to play it with a drum track or even just a click track it doesn't seem to work, it just seems to mess with the rhythm of the arpeggiated notes in the D+11.  If I play it as it is it sounds off and if I play it like the click/drum track seems to want me to, it also sounds weird.

Hard to describe in text.

digitalkettle

It almost feels like it wants to be alternating bars of 4/4 and 7/8

Haych

digitalkettle said:

It almost feels like it wants to be alternating bars of 4/4 and 7/8

I think I tried something like that, maybe I changed the whole section to 7/8, I forget, but certainly worth another try.

theatreanchor

It sounds like wherever it wants to be, it's nearly there. Also the acoustic sounds nice. 

rpr

It sounds fine,- it might not fit into a quantised grid/click/ drum machine, but that's not bad thing. It feels right

Haych

theatreanchor said:

It sounds like wherever it wants to be, it's nearly there. Also the acoustic sounds nice. 

Thank you!  Not bad for old strings recorded through an even older iPhone.

I'm using a Rode NT1 into an SSL2 II and then into Logic for the recording proper, it seems to sound alright, I think. 

TheBigDipper

I feel the rhythm doesn't lend itself to a straight 4/4 click even though I think it's in 4/4 time.  What bpm are you using in Logic to play over? 

Haych

TheBigDipper said:

I feel the rhythm doesn't lend itself to a straight 4/4 click even though I think it's in 4/4 time.  What bpm are you using in Logic to play over? 

I will have to check but pretty sure it’s 88bpm, hold on, lemme check……….

Yep, 88bpm

TheBigDipper

Thanks for posting this, Haych. It's given me a practical mini project with Logic and loopback recording (something I learned to do yesterday as a result of this...). Ta! :-) 

Ignoring the single notes that lead into the chord strums, is this the rhythm you're looking for? 

1     .     &     .     2     .    &     .    3    .    &     .     4    .    &    .    |
da                da   da        daaaaaaaaaaaaaa      da 

(bloody fonts, the last "da" is meant to be on beat 4)

That seems to fit 4/4 best from what you're playing to my ears, but it's your tune, so maybe you were thinking of something else and I'm just not hearing it?

Brad

If you're thinking in 4, it's a just timing issue, particularly on the D chord before you get back around to G. The push on the C to D isn't helping this either, but basically you're coming back to G a fraction too soon so you're losing the downbeat of the start of the phrase, hence you struggling to play to click.

If you haven't envisioned in it 4/4 then that D does in indeed need a different time. Which again, if wanting to play to click is something you need to sort out.

To help this, play the passage to a click but don't arpeggiate the D chord, just let it ring out until the bar has finished (counting/feeling the remaining beats) and get back to G on beat one. Keep doing that and gradually you will feel the space better and then be able to fill it. You've just got to relax on that D chord and feel a little bit more of the space.

That only applies if you're concerned with playing to a click/drum beat. It's the ultimate leveller for sure.

This is only what my ears are interpreting so if your intention is to feel it, then don't worry. 

Haych

Brad said:

If you're thinking in 4, it's a just timing issue, particularly on the D chord before you get back around to G. The push on the C to D isn't helping this either, but basically you're coming back to G a fraction too soon so you're losing the downbeat of the start of the phrase, hence you struggling to play to click.

If you haven't envisioned in it 4/4 then that D does in indeed need a different time. Which again, if wanting to play to click is something you need to sort out.

To help this, play the passage to a click but don't arpeggiate the D chord, just let it ring out until the bar has finished (counting/feeling the remaining beats) and get back to G on beat one. Keep doing that and gradually you will feel the space better and then be able to fill it. You've just got to relax on that D chord and feel a little bit more of the space.

That only applies if you're concerned with playing to a click/drum beat. It's the ultimate leveller for sure.

This is only what my ears are interpreting so if your intention is to feel it, then don't worry. 

I think you've possibly hit on something there.  If I play the chords without the arpeggiated notes it fits fine with the click, but any way I try to play to click with the extra notes I either lose the timing or it seems to force me to add an extra rest (before the F# I think) so it then seems to fit in 4/4 but also sounds equally as weird.

I will keep plugging away at it.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help.

Brad

Haych said:

Brad said:

If you're thinking in 4, it's a just timing issue, particularly on the D chord before you get back around to G. The push on the C to D isn't helping this either, but basically you're coming back to G a fraction too soon so you're losing the downbeat of the start of the phrase, hence you struggling to play to click.

If you haven't envisioned in it 4/4 then that D does in indeed need a different time. Which again, if wanting to play to click is something you need to sort out.

To help this, play the passage to a click but don't arpeggiate the D chord, just let it ring out until the bar has finished (counting/feeling the remaining beats) and get back to G on beat one. Keep doing that and gradually you will feel the space better and then be able to fill it. You've just got to relax on that D chord and feel a little bit more of the space.

That only applies if you're concerned with playing to a click/drum beat. It's the ultimate leveller for sure.

This is only what my ears are interpreting so if your intention is to feel it, then don't worry. 

I think you've possibly hit on something there.  If I play the chords without the arpeggiated notes it fits fine with the click, but any way I try to play to click with the extra notes I either lose the timing or it seems to force me to add an extra rest (before the F# I think) so it then seems to fit in 4/4 but also sounds equally as weird.

I will keep plugging away at it.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help.

I thought this might be the case. When you play it to the click without the arpeggiated notes, does the general placement of the chords fit with how you want it to be? If so, then I don't think you've exactly got issues placing those arpeggiated notes, but rather what to do after them which is causing the problems. I could go into where they are placed in the bar and the issue it's creating, but I think that might cause more harm than good and just confuse things.

Basically, to get with the click you've got a couple of options which involve including the extra beat you may or may not want.

One, is to allow a beat of "dead space" on beat 4. You're cutting this off too soon (possibly because it makes you feel uncomfortable?), which is why you're getting thrown off with the click. 

The other, is to fill that final beat with some extra arpeggiated notes. This will fill the space and get you back round in a smooth way.

If I get chance I'll record a couple of rough examples to hopefully demonstrate what I'm on about.

But if the above goes against what you're wanting it to be and you want it to come back round in a slightly more abrupt way (which is very cool), then I think you'll need to demo it in a more "vibey" way rather than to the discipline of the click.

Haych

I have finally cracked it.

It's a time signature thing - who knew I was all pretentious and prog?

I'm sure it's not the right way of going about this but the only way I could get Logic to play in time with how it is in my head was to make the whole thing a custom time signature of 31/16.

I came close with alternate bars of 4/4 and 7/8 but it needed an extra something-beat after the 7/8, I think - I'm a guitarist, what do I know!  Musical notation and theory, pfffft!

4/4 was close enough without playing to a drum track or click track that I never realised what I was trying to do was a weird time signature.  With a click/drum track and the extra something-beat in I was trying to effectively stretch that last D+11 by subliminally adding a rest between the D and the F#, or maybe after the F# - again, I think that's what was happening - me and proper music theory are not well acquainted bedfellows.

In any case I hope what I mean is understood.

But it works perfectly now.

Thanks to everyone who chipped in and offered suggestions.

viz

Noo it was deffo in 4/4; you may have sped up a bit at the end but it was still in 4/4. Put it back!

Haych

Soz, it's most certainly not all in 4/4.  Almost all of it is but that last bar with the D is not quite 4/4 and yet also not 7/8.

viz

But that’s just coz you sped up a bit. You didn’t actually have a 15 semiquaver bar. If you were to play it to a metronome, the riff would fit fine. 

Haych

It's a bit childish - I was mucking around with MIDI drums very badly and had to record the guitar on an electric direct into Logic 'cos the Missus is in bed, but this works to demo how I hear it in my head, and it's 31/16.  There's probably a better way of splitting the bars up but I'm obviously not clever enough.

https://on.soundcloud.com/dTtL4f5XQo1oJcsQQb

viz

Hm. Now that you’ve put drums on, I can’t hear it as it was! Well it sounds pretty cool and natural. You may have just written a new Dream Theater song. 

Jfingers

I like the tune, I cannot read music comfortably (I can but I don't want to have to) I assume it makes more sense with the drums on as it sounds more what one would naturally expect to hear, the drums work well for me. 

The first version reminds me of the Guitar style on multiple first demos songs of mine, which were written whilst vocals were being sung simultaneously. Didn't know what I was doing then and I still don't now...

If I write a song on acoustic it's mainly intended as a solo thing if it's quite fiddly like that, hence no click required. Pretty sure a lot of my life changing records weren't recorded to a click track.