Power amps for modellers

gearaddict

This again, apologies - wondering if there are any new options. I find that running my modeller into the fx return of my valve amp has a body and presence that is missing from any solid state options I have tried. I’ve tried the orange pedal baby, sd powerstage and ehx magnum 44. Anything else worth trying?

flying_pie

Not released yet, but the Synergy/Wampler Pedalhead looks interesting 

Danny1969

Nothing is going to sound as good as a valve power amp but you may find a good old linear power amp sounds better than the class D options like the Powerstage and other similar units. Maybe try a Marshall 8008 or similar.

Or do what I did when I used a modeller and buy a Marshall EL84 20\20 power amp

gearaddict

flying_pie said:

Not released yet, but the Synergy/Wampler Pedalhead looks interesting 

Oh, that does look interesting! Any idea when it is coming out?

Lebarque

This looks interesting

https://www.hagamps.com/collections/pedals/products/power-baby-tube-output-stage

TheMarlin

gearaddict said:

This again, apologies - wondering if there are any new options. I find that running my modeller into the fx return of my valve amp has a body and presence that is missing from any solid state options I have tried. I’ve tried the orange pedal baby, sd powerstage and ehx magnum 44. Anything else worth trying?

Anderson’s did a video on this. Their assessment was what you’re doing is the best tone you will get. 

Playing through a valve amp fx loop sounds superior to any powered FLFR cab. More organic sounding. 

If you like what you have, stick with it. 

GAS is a cruel master, I’ve sold brilliant amps to buy amp I liked much less.  GAS has resulted in more regret than wins. 

andy_k

I can only echo what has been said above, it sounds like you have tried most of the decent options, SD and EHX would have been my suggestions.
The Wampler solution sounds interesting, but not for £600.
Really depends on the use case anyway, in my case, at home I am more than happy to run my Tonex stuff through a £12 battery powered headphone amp into an old Roland 12 inch cab - it just sounds so good.
For something just a little louder, I have an EHX 5mm on a board with a big Tonex and then a long speaker cable to a Fane loaded Zilla cab, don't really like the idea of the long speaker cable though.
I was thinking of trying out something with the FX loop of a Victory Kraken pedal amp ( 90 watts at 8 ohm ) but it doesn't have a switchable loop, so it would get a bit messy with something like a loop switcher involved, but I have seen a set up involving the Kraken into a 100 watt Katana combo that somehow works, but at home volumes it isn't worth the effort.
If you are only modelling the preamp stage, a valve output makes sense, but otherwise ( at least with Tonex ) you are already modelling the output stage,plus maybe FX and cabs?, and then it is really just speaker choice (Andertons vid shows how FRFR just doesnt seem to cut it )
My conclusions were that you just need as clean as possible volume amplification ( hence the HIFI amp ) and either a 10 or 12 inch speaker for the thump.
If it works, it works ( it technically may be wrong, but the ears are the final test )

flying_pie

@andy_k ;FWIW I currently use my old Blackstar HT50 head as a power amp.for my Tonex. I use the so called DI captures of the amp rather than whole rig and they sound great.i believe there's some power stage modelling in some DI captures but it still sounds fine through the FX return. I think that's a better approach than AI guessing what's the cab and the amp. Using the DI & IR way I can also split the signal (via a Boss tuner at the end of my chain) into the amp and a Mooer Radar IR pedal so that any signal going to the PA has my preferred IR - using your own IR sounds dreadful if you turn off the cab  with a full rig Tonex capture.

At a gig the amp channels would be my backup if the Tonex failed, rather than the other way round! 

I still have an experiment to try - seeing if I can match the sound of my cab using FRFR and parametric EQ instead of an IR. There's a recent thread about this and the premise is that using mics to make IRs cut.out a lot of frequencies which is better for recording but a cruder EQ curve can sound more authentic for an in the room sound. I shall report back on that at a later date.

I also recall someone posting a Rabea FAQ video last year where he mentioned a tube power amp possibly being developed with Victory. That would make sense as he's using his Kraken heads as power amps these days with the preamps captured in his QC. We shall see

BTW you don't have to use a long speaker cable with the EHX. Just power it separately and put it on top of your cab like a regular amp

andy_k

@flying_pie , don't forget, the DI captures on Tonex, are the head versions of the amps-so they definitely already have the power stage modelled, I also have the Radar, and am not sure their models of power amps are as good as the Tonex, but it does allow for the IRs to be separated out as well.
I am only playing at home, so I don't need the volume, but part of the fun with valves is that they come alive the louder they get- not surprising they sound 'better' if you are double dipping the power stage at loud volume.
Mics are capable of capturing a bigger freq response than a guitar speaker, so they can't really have an effect on something that isn't there- but they definitely do have 'character', which is why there is usually some sort of blend included in a capture, or model.
An amp only capture, is not using mics, so that is completely down to choice of IR, and the speakers and mics used for them.
Rabeas thing, is a bit different, as he is using the QC for the pre-amp stage only, so a valve power stage makes a bit more sense.
I picked the EHX 5mm, as it uses 9v power, so it fits on my board, but if it needed mains power it would definitely sit on the cab ( same would apply if I used the V4 Kraken amp as a power section)
I have been playing with the Valeton GP5 and 50 lately, and am having good results by using the NAM version of the Fortin Satan pedal as a preamp, with FX and eq added, nice tonez despite what the models are ( via my £12 amp and old Roland speaker )

andy_k

@flying_pie Part of my thinking on this, is that we want the power amp section to be flat and uncoloured to allow the captures to be reflected accurately, so I wanted to try out a HiFi solution.
I like this guys reviews ( think Simpsons comic book guy ) and he generally is only doing expensive products, this one just showed up, at £250 it could almost be the thing.


Note, this has a switch for a high pass at 80hz, and also a bypass for the tone controls, analogue inputs and volume control, 300 watts, and looks very well built.
Obviously it is designed for HiFi and stereo speakers, which isn't really needed for a guitar amp, but when we are adding on studio type effects there could be something to be gained. ( ping pong delays, rotary speaker effects etc )

Something like this, but a bit cheaper might be worth experimenting with, my half watt headphone amp is doing the job for me at home.

nick79

I use a Fryette power station. Sounds great, that with my Quad Cortex and a nice cab is all I need 

flying_pie

@andy_k the pedant in me would say that not all DI captures will have the power section.modelled - if it's been recorded via the FX send into an interface then the power amp would be missing...

Rabea also runs his QC simultaneously with an IR into the PA as well as real can so there may be power section modelling. TBH I don't know about you, but I  think power section modelling on/off is not anything like as important as using the right power amp into a guitar cab. I think any tone colouration present or missing from it can easily be compensated using EQ to taste. If someone notices a difference in feel between different types of physical power amps then that's an entirely different matter for the player.

I didnt really use the power amps in the Radar either. I think that using the parametric EQ on top of your IR can work better. A gentle low Q boost around 2K or so is a good start point, along with a low pass akin to the real speaker.

But we digress as OP was talking about actual physical power amps. As is always the case, the only thing that matters is the end result and not how you get there. I'm sure some people will find solid state better and others valves, and I love your use of a headphone amp.

Sadly there will be no single universal best option for everybody and for some of us there's a limit as to how much we want to experiment. All I know is that my Tonex or Friedman IR-J can sound good through studio monitors, FRFR/PA, headphones or a guitar cab - they all just feel a bit different and require different settings for the best end result

flying_pie

andy_k said:

@flying_pie Part of my thinking on this, is that we want the power amp section to be flat and uncoloured to allow the captures to be reflected accurately, so I wanted to try out a HiFi solution

Ah... I don't think that's necessarily what everybody wants though. While I can understand your point the reality is that  some people might find types of colouration works better for them (e.g. the Young brothers colouring their tone by using wireless units in the studio).

I understand your thinking. But the notion that you shouldn't use a capture with power amp colouration into a valve amp because we want it to be flat is incorrect. We only want to sound good. It might work better and it might not. You'll only find out by experimenting. 

I'll have a look at your link. I'm always up for trying different things out

andy_k

flying_pie said:

andy_k said:

@flying_pie Part of my thinking on this, is that we want the power amp section to be flat and uncoloured to allow the captures to be reflected accurately, so I wanted to try out a HiFi solution

Ah... I don't think that's necessarily what everybody wants though. While I can understand your point the reality is that  some people might find types of colouration works better for them (e.g. the Young brothers colouring their tone by using wireless units in the studio).

I understand your thinking. But the notion that you shouldn't use a capture with power amp colouration into a valve amp because we want it to be flat is incorrect. We only want to sound good. It might work better and it might not. You'll only find out by experimenting. 

I'll have a look at your link. I'm always up for trying different things out

Oh don't get me wrong, there is no 'shouldn't', but in my case I am looking for as neutral a power section as possible, within my price range, and given that a guitar cab has its own sound.
Nothing a 10 band eq can't fix at the end of the chain anyway.

spev11

https://www.mooeraudio.com/product/Tube-Engine-202.html

Mooer do that, it’s the only tube power amp I can find

gearaddict

spev11 said:

https://www.mooeraudio.com/product/Tube-Engine-202.html

Mooer do that, it’s the only tube power amp I can find

Yeah I remember looking at these. They seem to be unavailable now though. 

gearaddict

TheMarlin said:

gearaddict said:

This again, apologies - wondering if there are any new options. I find that running my modeller into the fx return of my valve amp has a body and presence that is missing from any solid state options I have tried. I’ve tried the orange pedal baby, sd powerstage and ehx magnum 44. Anything else worth trying?

Anderson’s did a video on this. Their assessment was what you’re doing is the best tone you will get. 

Playing through a valve amp fx loop sounds superior to any powered FLFR cab. More organic sounding. 

If you like what you have, stick with it. 

GAS is a cruel master, I’ve sold brilliant amps to buy amp I liked much less.  GAS has resulted in more regret than wins. 

Yeah, fair enough. The only issue I have is that running into the fx return of my amp leaves me with no volume control or eq. Not the end of the world. 

DiscoStu

I've been wondering about this too. 
I run a Tonex pedal in to a Fender FR10 and although it sounds great at home, I find it lacks a bit of punch in the band. 
I wonder if there's another way of amplifying it but still keeping the weight down, either a pedal amp or a wee power amp.
My days of lumping heavy amps around are over.

flying_pie

@DiscoStu have you tried more agricultural/mid focused IRs? Assuming of course that you're not using whole rig captures 

I don't know about you, but i find that the detailed, crystal clear ones sound great at quiet volumes but don't cut it with a band. Origin Effects have some free ones that are very mid focused and punchy in comparison with the York Audio/Ownhammer type ones. Might be worth a look

https://origineffects.com/product/ir-cab-library/

But a light power amp and a 1x12 won't be that much heavier than a FR10

flying_pie

gearaddict said:

TheMarlin said:

gearaddict said:

This again, apologies - wondering if there are any new options. I find that running my modeller into the fx return of my valve amp has a body and presence that is missing from any solid state options I have tried. I’ve tried the orange pedal baby, sd powerstage and ehx magnum 44. Anything else worth trying?

Anderson’s did a video on this. Their assessment was what you’re doing is the best tone you will get. 

Playing through a valve amp fx loop sounds superior to any powered FLFR cab. More organic sounding. 

If you like what you have, stick with it. 

GAS is a cruel master, I’ve sold brilliant amps to buy amp I liked much less.  GAS has resulted in more regret than wins. 

Yeah, fair enough. The only issue I have is that running into the fx return of my amp leaves me with no volume control or eq. Not the end of the world. 

Either an EQ block at the end of your chain, or something like a Boss GE7 after your modeller could help there 

spev11

I wonder how difficult it would be to build just the power amp section of any given circuit? Not my area of expertise but given a plan I’d build one