The pickup winder's dilemma - and customers intentions

xOilCityPickups

Recently I had a customer ask if I could rewind his custom shop pickup. Someone else had already had a go by removing turns but with no success - the break/short was clearly inside the pickup. He asked me several times if anyone would detect the rewind - which I said was quite likely -  This actually made me quite nervous ... most folks here know I hate bullshit and deception. Anyway I rewound the pickup and repotted it as one would - but as happens in perhaps one in three cases, the gold signature simply dissolved in the potting bath (it's only cheap pen and it's a lottery if it makes it through). I used NOS wire and hand wound the pickup twice - trying to match exactly the wind pattern. 
I then posted the pickup back to the customer - only for him to claim it wasn't his pickup - I explained that to make the pickup serviceable again and sound as it should it had to be potted - and gave him a refund ... all the while he was claiming that I'd kept his £300 pickup! 
The pickup was broken when it came to me, and as such worthless, when it left me it was a fully working pickup that were I to call it Oil City would have cost over £100 ...
He ended up with a £45 rewind for free ... because I hate to have an unhappy customer ... the fact he remained unhappy made me feel justified in my misgivings.  

Let me tell potential customers: I don't condone folks trying to hoodwink future buyers - and in future I won't be rewinding any 'signature' pickups for customers.  

GoldenEraGuitars

I wouldn’t have carried out the work. And you shouldn’t have refunded the cost of the work either.

Has he taken further action regarding his accusation that you still have the original pickup? Because if not, he’s pulled your pants down.. and you let him (sorry for being blunt, unless I’ve missed something).

Dave8

Sorry thats happened Ash, people will try anything for a freebie. This person sounds like an all round self centred wanker, if they are willing to rip someone else off (asking if anyone would detect the re-wind, obviously going to sell it without disclosing) they will rip you off too.

xOilCityPickups

GoldenEraGuitars said:

I wouldn’t have carried out the work. And you shouldn’t have refunded the cost of the work either.

Has he taken further action regarding his accusation that you still have the original pickup? Because if not, he’s pulled your pants down.. and you let him (sorry for being blunt, unless I’ve missed something).

I rewind vintage and valuable pickups all the time - and I I have to admit this is the first time in fifteen years I've had someone  behave like that. It's my normal reaction to refund an unsatisfied customer, in the same way I refund customers who buy in error. 
Attempting to give resolution to a dissatisfied customer is not 'having your pant's poulled down' clearly we operate from different business rulebooks - pardon me for being blunt.   

xOilCityPickups

Dave8 said:

Sorry thats happened Ash, people will try anything for a freebie. This person sounds like an all round self centred wanker, if they are willing to rip someone else off (asking if anyone would detect the re-wind, obviously going to sell it without disclosing) they will rip you off too.

Frankly I just wanted rid of the guy ... and £45 quid's worth of wire and time is a small price to ditch the idiot. 

ICBM

A long time ago a customer asked me if I could put a new decal on his Tokai Strat copy, which someone had scratched the original off - he'd got a fake Fender one. I said yes - on one condition, which is that I would stamp TOKAI in big letters deeply into the neck heel, so it couldn't be sold fraudulently at a later date - eg by the next owner if he moved it on at any point, not accusing him of anything of course. Not somewhere it would look bad for him when the guitar was assembled, since it would be hidden - just somewhere that would protect a future buyer. Amazingly, he suddenly decided he didn't want a new logo after all. Hmmmm...

The brighter side to the same story is that more recently, another customer was more than happy for me to brand MADE IN CHINA into the floor of the pickup cavities of a Chibson he'd bought for his son, which I was changing the pickups on and setting up. It was quite a good copy - including having the fret-end 'nibs' - which could possibly have fooled someone not familiar with the real thing, so I felt it was important, and he agreed with me.

GoldenEraGuitars

I’m querying it because you seemed quick to give him money back while he was still accusing you of keeping the original pickup.

That is quite the accusation, and I did ask whether or not he’s still accusing you of keeping his pickup? 

A refund for the work wouldn’t resolve that issue. Obviously we all know you didn’t keep the pickup.

Seziertisch

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Possibly if you had said to him that there was a chance that the signature would not survive the process he might have decided to not get it repaired. 

Though that doesn’t excuse him accusing you of stealing from him. 45 quid is a small enough price to pay for not having someone like him in your life. 

xOilCityPickups

The customers name will be shared with my business contacts - so his  luck getting services from others in the industry will be down to them.. As you all know, I do rewinds for Guitar Guitar, Feline, The Bass Gallery and many other luthiers and techs all over the country - as well as work for names like The Gorillaz, PJ Harvey and the Rolling Stones. 

Yes his last email (before I blocked him) was accusing me of keeping his pickup - which is utterly ludicrous. I returned it to him special delivery for which I have the records. There was no point in me keeping a pickup that had no intrinsic value - that was value bound in the signature on it - and that the very act of repairing properly would only give it the value of a rewound pickup. 
If he want's to come after me for that he's welcome to try. 

I future I will only rewind 'signed' custom shop pickups on condition I laser engrave the baseplate/baseplates with RW that will be a no exceptions rule. 



  
 

impmann

Try running service depts for major manufacturers... 99% of customers are absolutely lovely. But that 1% drain your will to live...

Examples:

• High gain distortion pedal returned because "it distorts". That took two weeks of back and forth only to discover he didn't actually play guitar, and was trying to flog something he bought at a car boot, and was using the signal from his radio to demo it... without understanding what it actually did. 
• Man who returned a guitar for a fault without booking it in for a repair, or even contacting the service dept to say he was doing so. He sent it from Spain wrapped in a wet suit. A wet suit. No bubble wrap. No box. Just a wet suit. Oh and some brown tape. When it arrived in five bits it was apparently *my* fault it was broken.
• Man who bought a guitar in New York and bought a cheap Stagg hard case to protect it whilst in the hold of the aircraft on the way home. "Unbelievably" it was smashed to smithereens by the baggage handlers and so rather than complain to them, or to the airport, the airline or the hard case supplier - or even the shop for selling him a crap case - he badgered me for two weeks trying to get a refund or replacement guitar. Eventually he got hold of the CEO's personal mobile and texted him daily until eventually I was told to issue a replacement. Utter Cnut.
• The guy who bought a secondhand amp from a local reuse/reclaim shop to him in the wilds of mid Wales, and found it did not work the way he wanted it to. So he badgered me daily demanding a warranty repair on it as a gesture of goodwill... eventually, because I was fed up with the sound of his voice, I offered to have a look at it if he could send it in... apparently that wasn't good enough because he didn't drive, and he lived halfway up a mountain (and was registered disabled) so demanded it be collected from him for free. I'd love to know how he got down the mountain to buy the thing in the first place... anyhoo, when the amp *eventually* arrived there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. But he wouldn't have that... he wanted a brand new replacement, as in his mind we'd admitted liability for there being a fault as we offered to take a look at it. We just sent the amp back... but the DpD driver couldn't deliver it (van too big to get up the mountain path) so left it at the local Post Office/Corner shop. That wasn't good enough either and someone would have to retrieve it for him. He did get told to jog on at this point, so AFAIK its still sat behind the counter for him.

The list goes on. One day I'll write a book about entitled customers.

As I say, though, the vast majority of people are lovely. 

xOilCityPickups

impmann said:

Try running service depts for major manufacturers... 99% of customers are absolutely lovely. But that 1% drain your will to live...

Examples:

• High gain distortion pedal returned because "it distorts". That took two weeks of back and forth only to discover he didn't actually play guitar, and was trying to flog something he bought at a car boot, and was using the signal from his radio to demo it... without understanding what it actually did. 
• Man who returned a guitar for a fault without booking it in for a repair, or even contacting the service dept to say he was doing so. He sent it from Spain wrapped in a wet suit. A wet suit. No bubble wrap. No box. Just a wet suit. Oh and some brown tape. When it arrived in five bits it was apparently *my* fault it was broken.
• Man who bought a guitar in New York and bought a cheap Stagg hard case to protect it whilst in the hold of the aircraft on the way home. "Unbelievably" it was smashed to smithereens by the baggage handlers and so rather than complain to them, or to the airport, the airline or the hard case supplier - or even the shop for selling him a crap case - he badgered me for two weeks trying to get a refund or replacement guitar. Eventually he got hold of the CEO's personal mobile and texted him daily until eventually I was told to issue a replacement. Utter Cnut.
• The guy who bought a secondhand amp from a local reuse/reclaim shop to him in the wilds of mid Wales, and found it did not work the way he wanted it to. So he badgered me daily demanding a warranty repair on it as a gesture of goodwill... eventually, because I was fed up with the sound of his voice, I offered to have a look at it if he could send it in... apparently that wasn't good enough because he didn't drive, and he lived halfway up a mountain (and was registered disabled) so demanded it be collected from him for free. I'd love to know how he got down the mountain to buy the thing in the first place... anyhoo, when the amp *eventually* arrived there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. But he wouldn't have that... he wanted a brand new replacement, as in his mind we'd admitted liability for there being a fault as we offered to take a look at it. We just sent the amp back... but the DpD driver couldn't deliver it (van too big to get up the mountain path) so left it at the local Post Office/Corner shop. That wasn't good enough either and someone would have to retrieve it for him. He did get told to jog on at this point, so AFAIK its still sat behind the counter for him.

The list goes on. One day I'll write a book about entitled customers.

As I say, though, the vast majority of people are lovely. 

Yep most people are lovely ... and many of my customers have turned into good friends - but the older I get the harder it becomes to deal with the arseholes of this world. 

WezV

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get it repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

xOilCityPickups

WezV said:

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

Indeed - getting something repaired and claiming it is authentic and untouched is actually fraud. The customer could have bought a single custom shop pickup if he could have found one - however the solder joints would have been messed with which would have indicated work had been done. 
Someone had already removed a significant number of turns chasing the fault so the pickup was not 'authentic' when it came to me. The customer was only pissed because his ability to con someone else down the line had been compromised. 

fretmeister

OilCityPickups said:

The customers name will be shared with my business contacts - so his  luck getting services from others in the industry will be down to them.. As you all know, I do rewinds for Guitar Guitar, Feline, The Bass Gallery and many other luthiers and techs all over the country - as well as work for names like The Gorillaz, PJ Harvey and the Rolling Stones. 

Yes his last email (before I blocked him) was accusing me of keeping his pickup - which is utterly ludicrous. I returned it to him special delivery for which I have the records. There was no point in me keeping a pickup that had no intrinsic value - that was value bound in the signature on it - and that the very act of repairing properly would only give it the value of a rewound pickup. 
If he want's to come after me for that he's welcome to try. 

I future I will only rewind 'signed' custom shop pickups on condition I laser engrave the baseplate/baseplates with RW that will be a no exceptions rule. 



  
 

Also get them to sign something in advance about both that AND that the signature may not survive the wax bath.

xOilCityPickups

fretmeister said:

OilCityPickups said:

The customers name will be shared with my business contacts - so his  luck getting services from others in the industry will be down to them.. As you all know, I do rewinds for Guitar Guitar, Feline, The Bass Gallery and many other luthiers and techs all over the country - as well as work for names like The Gorillaz, PJ Harvey and the Rolling Stones. 

Yes his last email (before I blocked him) was accusing me of keeping his pickup - which is utterly ludicrous. I returned it to him special delivery for which I have the records. There was no point in me keeping a pickup that had no intrinsic value - that was value bound in the signature on it - and that the very act of repairing properly would only give it the value of a rewound pickup. 
If he want's to come after me for that he's welcome to try. 

I future I will only rewind 'signed' custom shop pickups on condition I laser engrave the baseplate/baseplates with RW that will be a no exceptions rule. 



  
 

Also get them to sign something in advance about both that AND that the signature may not survive the wax bath.

To be honest it's not worth the hassle ... I might as well say that I will also remove the signature the definite way - with solvent.

My spider sense was tingling when he asked more than once if anyone could detect a rewind, and I said it was impossible for me to comment as nobody should be trying to pass off a rewound pickup for an untouched one - however the answer was most likely yes. That seemed to satisfy him ...
But  I should have trusted my 'dickometer'.
 

GoldenEraGuitars

OilCityPickups said:

The customers name will be shared with my business contacts - so his  luck getting services from others in the industry will be down to them.. As you all know, I do rewinds for Guitar Guitar, Feline, The Bass Gallery and many other luthiers and techs all over the country - as well as work for names like The Gorillaz, PJ Harvey and the Rolling Stones. 

Yes his last email (before I blocked him) was accusing me of keeping his pickup - which is utterly ludicrous. I returned it to him special delivery for which I have the records. There was no point in me keeping a pickup that had no intrinsic value - that was value bound in the signature on it - and that the very act of repairing properly would only give it the value of a rewound pickup. 
If he want's to come after me for that he's welcome to try. 

I future I will only rewind 'signed' custom shop pickups on condition I laser engrave the baseplate/baseplates with RW that will be a no exceptions rule. 



  
 

Then I would’ve quite simply blocked him (As you already did anyway) and kept his money. If he deemed the £45 worthy of small claims court and solicitors fees, then I would have let him try. 

Unfortunately, when you are working on refinishing bodies, Rewinding Pick ups or anything else of that nature you have no control over what the customer will do after that. 

Thanks to the rather vigilant guitar scene, I have been made aware on two occasions that my work was being used as original to dupe people out of several thousand pounds for a vintage guitar.. Thankfully, neither was sold via the channels that the person involved were using. But who knows for they have ended up or who the fleeced out of their money in the end. Ultimately, we are not responsible for somebody else’s actions further down the line.

And we very probably do operate different business practices Ash. I certainly wouldn’t be giving a refund to somebody who has called me a liar for whom I’ve carried out work for. Regardless of the price. Although the circumstances would have to be pretty strange for someone to accuse me of switching a guitar body out for another one. I’m not even sure if it’s possible as there are no two guitar bodies exactly the same in existence.

stickyfiddle

WezV said:

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get it repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

Being cynical I would suggest the guy probably bought a dead pickup for 50 quid and hoped he could turn it into a NOS one for resale for minimal outlay. 

xOilCityPickups

GoldenEraGuitars said:

OilCityPickups said:

The customers name will be shared with my business contacts - so his  luck getting services from others in the industry will be down to them.. As you all know, I do rewinds for Guitar Guitar, Feline, The Bass Gallery and many other luthiers and techs all over the country - as well as work for names like The Gorillaz, PJ Harvey and the Rolling Stones. 

Yes his last email (before I blocked him) was accusing me of keeping his pickup - which is utterly ludicrous. I returned it to him special delivery for which I have the records. There was no point in me keeping a pickup that had no intrinsic value - that was value bound in the signature on it - and that the very act of repairing properly would only give it the value of a rewound pickup. 
If he want's to come after me for that he's welcome to try. 

I future I will only rewind 'signed' custom shop pickups on condition I laser engrave the baseplate/baseplates with RW that will be a no exceptions rule. 



  
 

Then I would’ve quite simply blocked him (As you already did anyway) and kept his money. If he deemed the £45 worthy of small claims court and solicitors fees, then I would have let him try. 

Unfortunately, when you are working on refinishing bodies, Rewinding Pick ups or anything else of that nature you have no control over what the customer will do after that. 

Thanks to the rather vigilant guitar scene, I have been made aware on two occasions that my work was being used as original to dupe people out of several thousand pounds for a vintage guitar.. Thankfully, neither was sold via the channels that the person involved were using. But who knows for they have ended up or who the fleeced out of their money in the end. Ultimately, we are not responsible for somebody else’s actions further down the line.

And we very probably do operate different business practices Ash. I certainly wouldn’t be giving a refund to somebody who has called me a liar for whom I’ve carried out work for. Regardless of the price. Although the circumstances would have to be pretty strange for someone to accuse me of switching a guitar body out for another one. I’m not even sure if it’s possible as there are no two guitar bodies exactly the same in existence.

Actually I am aware of  finisher/refinisher who was accused of swapping a non Fender body for a vintage Fender one - 
sadly there are jerks out there who will try it on. 
Re the refund - yes I'm guilty of always trying to come to a happy resolution - even when the other party is being an arse. In the grand scheme of things £45 quid is not much to maintain a moral high ground. 

stickyfiddle said:

WezV said:

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get it repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

Being cynical I would suggest the guy probably bought a dead pickup for 50 quid and hoped he could turn it into a NOS one for resale for minimal outlay. 

I'm inclined to agree with you sadly - it came in a non fender cover - so make of that what you will. 

Seziertisch

stickyfiddle said:

WezV said:

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get it repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

Being cynical I would suggest the guy probably bought a dead pickup for 50 quid and hoped he could turn it into a NOS one for resale for minimal outlay. 

@OilCityPickups Which winder’s signature was on the pickup? 

xOilCityPickups

Seziertisch said:

stickyfiddle said:

WezV said:

Seziertisch said:

I think that for some people the “collectibility” or “authenticity” is at least as important as the functionality. 

Indeed.

But any value associated with it's collectability was lost when the pickup was broken, and further reduced when a failed repair was attempted, not when Ash rewound and potted it.

Sounds like the customers options were to pay £300+ to get it back to being "authentic", or £45 to get it repaired to a high standard.  They made their choice.

Being cynical I would suggest the guy probably bought a dead pickup for 50 quid and hoped he could turn it into a NOS one for resale for minimal outlay. 

@OilCityPickups Which winder’s signature was on the pickup? 

Abigail Ybarra ... 
you can see why I was emphatic that if I rewound it - he shouldn't claim it was original. 

ICBM

OilCityPickups said:

Abigail Ybarra ... 

you can see why I was emphatic that if I rewound it - he shouldn't claim it was original. 

Removing the signature deliberately and telling the customer in advance that you're going to is the only morally correct option with one of these - the 'added value' is *entirely* in the fact that it was wound by her, as the flatwork and magnets are standard issue, and hence if you rewind it, even if you could somehow analyse every single turn and replace it exactly as it was, it's not one of hers. I'm sure you don't need telling that!

Do you think he would have gone ahead with the repair if you'd told him that it would definitely be detectable and would no longer have the signature? I'm guessing not.

I'm not doing repair work now or I would ask for this chancer's name too. I also have a former customer who it cost me £35 to get rid of - and that was in the 90s! Still no regrets at all.