Tone Masters on big stages...

stickyfiddle

I saw this on an Anderton's post earlier and just goggled to confirm. Doyle Bramhall II has a new rig for his gigs in Clapton's band this year. 

I'm not sure if the Bassman is backup, but it's micced and it's a Tone Master.... 

chrisj1602

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Mike McCready did all of Pearl Jam's 2022-23 tour with a TM Deluxe and Twin Reverb on stage. I saw them at Hyde Park - stages don't get much bigger than that! Sounded absolutely mega, as he always does:



https://www.guitarworld.com/news/pearl-jam-mike-mccready-switch-to-fender-digital-tone-master-amps ;

For the 2024 he swapped to using an AxeFX floor unit, played through a couple of Tone Master FRFR cabs on stage. Also sounded epic when I saw them at at Co-Op Arena. https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/guitarists/mike-mccready-on-switching-to-amp-modelers

richardhomer

stickyfiddle said:

I saw this on an Anderton's post earlier and just goggled to confirm. Doyle Bramhall II has a new rig for his gigs in Clapton's band this year. 

I'm not sure if the Bassman is backup, but it's micced and it's a Tone Master.... 

It is a back-up - but presumably good enough when needed.

I was at that gig - Doyle’s tone was fantastic. 

GavRichList

chrisj1602 said:

Johnny is an interesting case, as I don’t think actually he has particularly good core tone ever really… or at least any better than ok. Don’t get me wrong; he’s my guitar hero and untouchable in terms of his unique voice but that’s entirely about the parts for me, and not the tone itself.

Danny1969

From an electronic  design view I don't see any difference between a Tonemaster combo and a modeller running into a class D active speaker. That's essentially what it is, just made to look like a guitar amp. 

XRL out with speaker emulation, well the modeller has that. 

Power amp attenuation, the Tonemaster doesn't have any, it just turns down the audio level before it gets the Icepower amplifier  .... there is no point at all attenuating the output of a class D amp in order to make it sound better, they are effectively switching amplifiers with an output recovered via filters. There's no niceness to be had driving one harder.

But the genius of the Tonemaster is hiding the above in a box that looks like a proper amp. Because our brains then have a positive expectation bias about how it will sound before we even turn it on. Then you have the proper tactile controls, not menus on a screen. The lack of options enhances the experience that this is a proper amp, not a modeller. I admire this. It's as though someone who really understands how humans react to tech was on the design board, like jony Ive or someone similar. 

thermionic

Johnny’s tone in recent years is mainly blackface clean (with a touch of chorus/reveb/delay) - and is what allows him to play his parts as you say. He’d sound just as good through any modelling amp set to blackface clean I suspect.

Danny1969

Johnny is a layer player to me. There's generally a lot of parts in the mix, some very low in the mix but their presence adds to the textures created. He's very good at coming up with parts but when playing a single guitar into an amp he always sounds a bit basic tone wise. 

english_bob

GavRichList said:

chrisj1602 said:

Johnny is an interesting case, as I don’t think actually he has particularly good core tone ever really… or at least any better than ok. Don’t get me wrong; he’s my guitar hero and untouchable in terms of his unique voice but that’s entirely about the parts for me, and not the tone itself.

Wait a minute. So you're saying that actually being able to play something worth listening to might be more important than having incredible TOANZ? 

I think you need to sort your priorities out, Gav.

GavRichList

english_bob said:

GavRichList said:

chrisj1602 said:

Johnny is an interesting case, as I don’t think actually he has particularly good core tone ever really… or at least any better than ok. Don’t get me wrong; he’s my guitar hero and untouchable in terms of his unique voice but that’s entirely about the parts for me, and not the tone itself.

Wait a minute. So you're saying that actually being able to play something worth listening to might be more important than having incredible TOANZ? 

I think you need to sort your priorities out, Gav.

Sorry, you’re quite right. Please don’t take my membership away from me; even after everything I said above, I’ve still got my 80s jetglo 330, diamond comp and a black label CE-2 so I can cosplay when nobody’s looking 

fretmeister

Chris Buck has one and seems happy with it too:

dazzajl

An unpopular opinion among Leica and Hasselblad owners is that there’s always someone just around the corner using gear you’d look down your nose at taking much better photos than you are……..

Lewy

Danny1969 said:

From an electronic  design view I don't see any difference between a Tonemaster combo and a modeller running into a class D active speaker. That's essentially what it is, just made to look like a guitar amp. 

XRL out with speaker emulation, well the modeller has that. 

Power amp attenuation, the Tonemaster doesn't have any, it just turns down the audio level before it gets the Icepower amplifier  .... there is no point at all attenuating the output of a class D amp in order to make it sound better, they are effectively switching amplifiers with an output recovered via filters. There's no niceness to be had driving one harder.

But the genius of the Tonemaster is hiding the above in a box that looks like a proper amp. Because our brains then have a positive expectation bias about how it will sound before we even turn it on. Then you have the proper tactile controls, not menus on a screen. The lack of options enhances the experience that this is a proper amp, not a modeller. I admire this. It's as though someone who really understands how humans react to tech was on the design board, like jony Ive or someone similar. 

I think you're missing a big part of the equation which is a Tonemaster combo is using real guitar speakers in a real combo cab - usually solid pine. So it's definitely not the same as a modeller running into a class D active speaker.

The Tonemaster FRFR cabs are class D active speakers made to look like guitar amps but that's not what anyone's referring to here.

english_bob

GavRichList said:

Johnny is an interesting case, as I don’t think actually he has particularly good core tone ever really… or at least any better than ok. Don’t get me wrong; he’s my guitar hero and untouchable in terms of his unique voice but that’s entirely about the parts for me, and not the tone itself.

Wait a minute. So you're saying that actually being able to play something worth listening to might be more important than having incredible TOANZ? 

I think you need to sort your priorities out, Gav.

Sorry, you’re quite right. Please don’t take my membership away from me; even after everything I said above, I’ve still got my 80s jetglo 330, diamond comp and a black label CE-2 so I can cosplay when nobody’s looking 

There are worse members of the Smiths you could be emulating I guess.

Well, one.

newi123

english_bob said:

GavRichList said:

Johnny is an interesting case, as I don’t think actually he has particularly good core tone ever really… or at least any better than ok. Don’t get me wrong; he’s my guitar hero and untouchable in terms of his unique voice but that’s entirely about the parts for me, and not the tone itself.

Wait a minute. So you're saying that actually being able to play something worth listening to might be more important than having incredible TOANZ? 

I think you need to sort your priorities out, Gav.

Sorry, you’re quite right. Please don’t take my membership away from me; even after everything I said above, I’ve still got my 80s jetglo 330, diamond comp and a black label CE-2 so I can cosplay when nobody’s looking 

There are worse members of the Smiths you could be emulating I guess.

Well, one.

I remember being at uni in Newcastle in the 90s - the monthly issue of Viz had in the top right of the cover, tabloid style:  'Morrisey - Pop genius or Twat?'

You opened it to find an article; 'Its official - Morrisey's a Twat!'

I'm still laughing 35 yrs later............ although I have grown to appreciate Mr Marr.  

p90fool

Lewy said:

Danny1969 said:

From an electronic  design view I don't see any difference between a Tonemaster combo and a modeller running into a class D active speaker. That's essentially what it is, just made to look like a guitar amp. 

XRL out with speaker emulation, well the modeller has that. 

Power amp attenuation, the Tonemaster doesn't have any, it just turns down the audio level before it gets the Icepower amplifier  .... there is no point at all attenuating the output of a class D amp in order to make it sound better, they are effectively switching amplifiers with an output recovered via filters. There's no niceness to be had driving one harder.

But the genius of the Tonemaster is hiding the above in a box that looks like a proper amp. Because our brains then have a positive expectation bias about how it will sound before we even turn it on. Then you have the proper tactile controls, not menus on a screen. The lack of options enhances the experience that this is a proper amp, not a modeller. I admire this. It's as though someone who really understands how humans react to tech was on the design board, like jony Ive or someone similar. 

I think you're missing a big part of the equation which is a Tonemaster combo is using real guitar speakers in a real combo cab - usually solid pine. So it's definitely not the same as a modeller running into a class D active speaker.

The Tonemaster FRFR cabs are class D active speakers made to look like guitar amps but that's not what anyone's referring to here.

That is the crux of it for me. Modellers have been pretty good at modelling preamps and amps for years if not decades, but for me they still don't convincingly model speakers and cabs in the room (recordings are a different subject).

Not only does sticking a modeller in a real pine cab with a real guitar speaker remove the hardest part of modelling, it also means that as a single modelled amp you naturally explore all of the tonal possibilities of that one amp, instead of doomscrolling through menus looking for the perfect amp every three seconds. 

Viewed as a standalone single amp modeller it looks like terrible value for money, but as a piece of equipment for musicians it works very well. 

Danny1969

Good point I had forgotten about the guitar speaker .., that will make a big difference. When I used modelling in the early noughties it was into a Marshall cab, no speaker simm 

Lebarque

Danny1969 said:

Good point I had forgotten about the guitar speaker .., that will make a big difference. When I used modelling in the early noughties it was into a Marshall cab, no speaker simm 

The speaker makes a massive difference to tone. I remember being amazed when I did a speaker swap in a combo years ago. And then felt silly about all the marginal gains upgrades I'd been making, like swapping similar pickups etc.

stickyfiddle

The speaker makes a massive difference because it makes it sound and feel like an amp far more than anything FRFR involving what seems like constant faff with IRs. 

With the TMDR I just plug it in and it sounds roughly like a DR and I move on with my life.

AND it doesn’t scare sound guys because they’re just miccing a combo. And when you tell them there’s an independent DI their eyes light up  

I have multiple “better” amps which I love but the TMDR is one of the all time best hits of gear I’ve ever had

Chuffola

Oh why don't you just marry your goddam TMDR!!



/joking

jellybelly

p90fool said:

Lewy said:

Danny1969 said:

From an electronic  design view I don't see any difference between a Tonemaster combo and a modeller running into a class D active speaker. That's essentially what it is, just made to look like a guitar amp. 

XRL out with speaker emulation, well the modeller has that. 

Power amp attenuation, the Tonemaster doesn't have any, it just turns down the audio level before it gets the Icepower amplifier  .... there is no point at all attenuating the output of a class D amp in order to make it sound better, they are effectively switching amplifiers with an output recovered via filters. There's no niceness to be had driving one harder.

But the genius of the Tonemaster is hiding the above in a box that looks like a proper amp. Because our brains then have a positive expectation bias about how it will sound before we even turn it on. Then you have the proper tactile controls, not menus on a screen. The lack of options enhances the experience that this is a proper amp, not a modeller. I admire this. It's as though someone who really understands how humans react to tech was on the design board, like jony Ive or someone similar. 

I think you're missing a big part of the equation which is a Tonemaster combo is using real guitar speakers in a real combo cab - usually solid pine. So it's definitely not the same as a modeller running into a class D active speaker.

The Tonemaster FRFR cabs are class D active speakers made to look like guitar amps but that's not what anyone's referring to here.

That is the crux of it for me. Modellers have been pretty good at modelling preamps and amps for years if not decades, but for me they still don't convincingly model speakers and cabs in the room (recordings are a different subject).

Not only does sticking a modeller in a real pine cab with a real guitar speaker remove the hardest part of modelling, it also means that as a single modelled amp you naturally explore all of the tonal possibilities of that one amp, instead of doomscrolling through menus looking for the perfect amp every three seconds. 

Viewed as a standalone single amp modeller it looks like terrible value for money, but as a piece of equipment for musicians it works very well. 

I agree with much of this - the Tone master stuff might well be a modeller with a class D power amp etc but what it acts like, very very effectively, is a standard Guitar amp. If you put someone in the room with the TMDR who didn't know what it was they'd just operate it like a regular Deluxe and it would sound very similar to a regular valve Deluxe. They wouldn't know unless they went poking around the back.