Royal Mail – Is there a lawyer on board?

Fatfingers

I bought a guitar strap from the States. It got to customs and I had to pay VAT on it. I don't mind paying VAT – well, more accurately, it's not that I don't mind paying it, I just accept that I have to. However, I object strongly to paying an £8 'handling fee' top Royal Mail. They didn't even deliver it – I had to go and get it from the sorting office eight miles away.

The reason I ask whether there's a lawyer on here is this: I thought it was a cranial offence to delay or prevent the delivery of someone's mail. Assuming that's true, what would the score be if I paid the VAT but refused to pay the 'handling fee?' Is it legal for them to charge a fee for 'handling' my mail? After all, isn't that their job?

Fatfingers

Lixarto

Did you pay the £8?

stickyfiddle

I've always thought that sorting out the customs paperwork, dealing with HMRC, informing me of a parcel and then usually trying to deliver it was pretty good for 8 quid.

Fatfingers

What paperwork? There wasn't any. Customs asses the VATable value based on the paperwork provided by the seller. I can't see that Royal Mail do anything other than deliver a card saying they need paying.

Yes - I did pay the eight quid. I thought about arguing about it but was in a hurry and couldn't face the grief. But I do wonder about the legality of it all.

fretmeister

It is legal. End of. Don't waste your time.

Think about what they do for that £8

They have plenty of paper work to do - they complete the VAT return to the HMRC on your behalf. They are able to do this electronically and the HMRC are content to allow them to release the item to you when they've done that paper work. On small items they even pay the Vat for you to speed up the process.

If they didn't do it, then when it arrived you would get a letter advising of the item arriving. Then you would have to complete the Vat returns to the HMRC and post them off. Then the HMRC would (in about 6 weeks) write to you to inform you of the monies owed. Then you would make payment.

Then another 6 weeks later you would get permission to have the item and you could collect it.

It might be annoying, but that £8 saved you more than a month of sodding about with the HMRC yourself before the item was officially allowed into the UK.

not_the_dj

RM have to present the package to customs. They have to provide the package details, and provide the physical package for inspection. So there's a parcel sorting operation there, a load will contain a mixture of parcels, some needing processing some not. Customs may also require them to open certain packages, and providing everything's ok they'll repack them for their onward journey. 

Col_Decker

I'm not a lawyer but I have read posts on facebook. I say sue 'em. Its ill eagles aye it.

imalone

Fatfingers said:

The reason I ask whether there's a lawyer on here is this: I thought it was a cranial offence to delay or prevent the delivery of someone's mail.

Aside from the fact cranial offence would be a good death metal band name, you are thinking of this: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/part/V/crossheading/offences-of-interfering-with-the-mail
But there are specific provisions for holding mail in compliance with other acts, of which clearing customs is one.
That said, I do think the charge is excessive for small items where it's often more than the actual customs charge and they haven't really had to do anything they don't do for normal post (well, they have paid the tax for you, so it's supposed to also be covering their costs for that). This messing about is one of the main reasons I don't order non-EU stuff. If there was a way to pre-pay without having to set up your own company that would be better.

RaymondLin

There are lots of sides to this.

1 – it is illegal for them to withhold a parcel.
2 – it is not really worth my hassle to spend time to research, write letters, phone calls and down right stress over £8.  Use that time to make money or enjoy life instead.

If they remove the charge and you end up dealing with HMRC yourself to clear the charges, imagine how long that will take !!!?!

I'd rather pay it and get it over and done with.

Also, these charges are standard, have been for decades, guess OP never ordered from outside the EU before?  I always, always, always take into account VAT and any charges into account when ordering to see if it is worth the time and savings.  Sometimes there isn't any much savings.

p.s. £8 is cheap, it gets more expensive…my guitar was £40 handling fee…which I am a little peeved as surely there isn't any more admin to do, you surely merely tick a different box on the form when going through customs.

ESBlonde

An explanation.

Customs DO NOT give credit to anyone. They will not hold goods for members of the public whilst they sort out cleared payments. They do not deal with 'the public' on unaccompanied goods. They don't have the space to hold the goods or the administration to recover the duty and fees.

So they authorise import agents/shipping companies to do this on behalf of their customers. But because Customs do not extend credit the require the Shipper/clearance agent to give a bankers guarantee to the value of all the duty they might require in a month but then double it because they don't collect for 10 days and you might import the value again on the first of the next month. This qualifies the agent to a DAN (deferment account number) which must be used to pay clearance. This requires the Agent to permanently deposit twice that vale with the bank for no return except a guarantee (and the band charge for the pleasure too).
Now the Shipping/clearance agent produces and presents all the required documentation to customs for the import and pays instantly the due Tax and Duty. For that they make a nominal charge of (in this case£8) to each and every transaction to do said paperwork and use their DAN. Unless you import hundreds of packages a month you are unlikely to find a cheaper commercial rate and it certainly wouldn't be worth your time to try.

not_the_dj

snip

Fatfingers

£8 may be cheap, but when the thing only cost £25, paying nearly half as much again in charges seems excessive to me. 

bingefeller

Not worth the hassle over £8.  Anyway, @fretmeister is the legal guy on here so I'd listen to him...

musicegbdf

We charge between £30 and £50 to do the paperwork and do not make money on it. The problem is the paperwork is much the same whatever the value.

fretmeister

Fatfingers;475314" said:

£8 may be cheap, but when the thing only cost £25, paying nearly half as much again in charges seems excessive to me. 

Vote with your feet then and don't buy from abroad

chillidoggy

It might smart a bit, but stumping up the £8 will pale into insignificance if you have to get into any kind of dealings with that intransigent, disorganisation known as HMRC. Your phone bill will increase by more than that amount as you spend all day on hold waiting in some telephone queue or other, only to speak to someone who has no idea what they're talking about, before putting you on hold again, and passing you on to some other wanker who, unsurprisingly, also has no idea what they're doing.

Or you could, as has already been said, order within the UK. Just don't ask anyone to put it in a cab for you, because a refusal often offends.

Strat_a_tat_tat

chillidoggy said:

 Just don't ask anyone to put it in a cab for you, because a refusal often offends.

WezV

Is it still £8 for anything that comes through standard delivery and £12 for anything that's priority with rm/pf.

I once had a success with the DHL charges. At the time it was £10 admin for businesses, only £1.50 for individuals. And they were the only ones back then who would deliver and bill you later.

Don't import as much as I used to so I am not up to date with it

RobDavies

Fatfingers said:

Customs asses the VATable value based on the paperwork.

So, they're doing the donkey work for you, then?

ToneControl

I challenged this once. I don't accept that filing a few records means that a small parcel should cost £8 to present to HMRC, when delivering it within the UK would cost £4

AFAIK you can get the foreign shipping company to pay the duty and vat in advance, and thus avoid the charge
other couriers charge in a different way, I think I called up and paid one with UPS or DHL before they sent a bill for payment

ebay seem to offer payment in advance now:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/shipping-globally.html?_trksid=p2151838.m2236#buyer-charges