Using PayPal GIFT to pay for stuff

TTony

There have been a few - only a few but enough to be noticeable - deals via the Classifieds that seem to have gone wrong recently.

When buying something, please use your commonsense in deciding how to pay for it.

PP GIFT is great for sending money, without cost, to people that you know and trust.  But there's a sting in the tail, and a clue in the name - it's intended for sending a "GIFT", not for paying for goods & services where you may need some protection for your money.  PPG is faster than the old school cash in an envelope, but you've got the same amount of protection in the event that something goes wrong.  Likewise, bank transfers are quick and easy, but you've again got no protection.

For deals in which you don't know the other person, and/or they've got little history here, think about;

1.  Ask the seller to use an insured and trackable post/courier service - that's actually for their protection rather than yours - and ask them to commit to a date when they'll send it.

2.  When you've agreed the deal, ask them to send you a PP invoice.  This should describe the item that you're buying.

3.  Whether or not you get an invoice, use the normal PP process - NOT GIFT - to pay for it, unless you know the other person and trust them with your money.

4.  Allow a reasonable time for the item to arrive, but only a reasonable time.  You've agreed (in step 2) when it will be sent, and even the cheapest/slowest services will generally deliver in 3-4 working days.

5.  If it doesn't arrive, let them know and ask them to track it.  If they don't reply within a day or two, get ready to let PayPal know.

6.  If the worst happens and the item (or the seller) is confirmed lost, get your PayPal claim in to get your money refunded.  YOU CAN'T DO THIS IF YOU'VE USED PP GIFT.  If it's a genuine loss, the seller should be able to reclaim from the postal/courier service provided that they've bought sufficient insurance cover for it.

Using the standard PP will cost a little more (3% or so atm), but that's what you need to pay for peace of mind and the opportunity to recover your money if the deal goes wrong.

impmann

As a seller I have started offering people the option of not sending money as a gift - its not that there is any problem, far from it, its just that I want buyers that I don't necessarily 'know'  feel that they can trust me as a seller. If the buyer wants to pay the extra 3% fees for piece of mind, then I am more than happy to accommodate this. After all, this all has to be based on trust.

TTony's commonsense approach is spot on, IMHO.

Wazmeister

Bump for this great thread.

TTony

Wazmeister said:

Bump for this great thread.

It's a sticky

meltedbuzzbox

Wazmeister said:

Bump for this great thread.

http://edgecastcdn.net/800034/www.perpetualkid.com/productimages/lg3/NOSE-2200.jpg

Ché

I always pay the fees when paying for items via PayPal. When you're paying potentially hundreds of pounds for something I'd rather pay 3% extra to not loose 100% of my money.

WarpedSounds

I've just asked someone if I could pay the extra £4 rather than a gift and they refused. I might be new to this site, but I've bought a lot on Facebook and would never use the gift option for someone I don't know.

Emp_Fab

WarpedSounds said:

I've just asked someone if I could pay the extra £4 rather than a gift and they refused. I might be new to this site, but I've bought a lot on Facebook and would never use the gift option for someone I don't know.

Have your first Fret.  A Wisdom duly awarded !

FelineGuitars

I cancelled a very large sale of a guitar today and refunded the Paypal money where the customer had apparently paid me by Paypal Gift. The payment came from an online company account that was held in his name  in this country but registered to one of those office addresses you can rent as a mailing address only and website was registered from another "virtual office" whilst he was an internet marketeer that operated out of Australia.

I may have been much more ok about it if the money came directly from him, and to be fair on him he may have just had a lot of funds in the paypal account  from an online trading company (pet care products) that he could easily access.

However something felt wrong , I can't entirely define it and as the guitar had to be shipped all the way to Australia and he could then pull the rug from under me and potentially somehow take back the money.

I checked and it seems that as a seller I lose all my rights to a fair hearing from Paypal if I accept Paypal Gift.

Had it been someone I knew or had traded with before or all his friends were people I knew - if only online I may have felt differently about it. I will tell him that I will very happily accept a bank transfer  for the same amount.

I did read this today as well and it set me thinking about the issues we all face with paypal both as sellers or buyers

http://wiredguitarist.com/how-to-buy-sell-guitars-online-without-getting-scammed/

Sporky

I thought a PPG coudn't be clawed back?

Deijavoo

Sporky said:

I thought a PPG coudn't be clawed back?

Yeah I noticed that point. I've nearly always used PPG on here both ways. I bought my Timeline away from EBay via PPG too. Was risky looking back. I also bought my Mark V doing the same but the guy lived in my town and I met him in his office, seemed a safe bet.

FelineGuitars

I think if the person who paid it did it with a card or bank transfer they can claim it was unauthorised and the bank will claw the money back. I'm just left feeling uncertain by it all again sadly unless it's people that i know or can track down.

Sporky

Certainly the transaction you described would make me nervous just because of all the layers of odd.

Heartfeltdawn

Sporky said:

I thought a PPG coudn't be clawed back?

You can if it isn't claimed. Let's say you want to pay someone and you send it to jamdustbin@idiot.com instead of hamdustbin@idiot.com. If jamdustbin@idiot.com has no Paypal account then it will be unclaimed and you can get it returned. 

However if jamdustbin@idiot.com is on Paypal and claims it, then you have to rely on their good grace to return it. 

Paypal in all their infinite wisdom have now designed the payment form in a very shoddy way and it is very easy to send money to the wrong person. I've now seen it happen on four different forums. 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/60679/psa-be-very-careful-sending-paypal-gift-payments-on-a-desktop#latest

On KVR it happened to a chap buying a bit of audio software worth a few hundred dollars. Autocomplete came up, he didn't notice it was going to someone else he'd had dealings with in the past, and clicked Send. The buyer then doesn't get his stuff and complains about the seller, the seller hasn't received money, and the person who was sent money erroneously gets blamed. Complete effin' shambles. 

hassleham

As a seller (I haven't sold anything on this forum as of yet, but sold many items on Facebook), i'm uneasy about selling via normal paypal. If the buyer makes a complaint about anything being wrong with the item, paypal will almost always side with them and the seller can lose the item AND the money.

This is what I've heard in the past about using paypal when selling items. Am I wrong?

Sporky

I think that's a slightly over-paranoid view but there is some truth behind it.

Heartfeltdawn

hassleham said:

As a seller (I haven't sold anything on this forum as of yet, but sold many items on Facebook), i'm uneasy about selling via normal paypal. If the buyer makes a complaint about anything being wrong with the item, paypal will almost always side with them and the seller can lose the item AND the money.

This is what I've heard in the past about using paypal when selling items. Am I wrong?

Actually from what I've seen on the various forums that I lurk around, there's more evidence to say that dealing with Paypal customer service is a far more enjoyable experience than the same processes with eBay. 

I'd also say that I've seen far more dodgy sellers than I have seen dodgy buyers.

Blueingreen

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

I thought a PPG coudn't be clawed back?

You can if it isn't claimed. Let's say you want to pay someone and you send it to jamdustbin@idiot.com instead of hamdustbin@idiot.com. If jamdustbin@idiot.com has no Paypal account then it will be unclaimed and you can get it returned. 

However if jamdustbin@idiot.com is on Paypal and claims it, then you have to rely on their good grace to return it. 

Paypal in all their infinite wisdom have now designed the payment form in a very shoddy way and it is very easy to send money to the wrong person. I've now seen it happen on four different forums. 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/60679/psa-be-very-careful-sending-paypal-gift-payments-on-a-desktop#latest

On KVR it happened to a chap buying a bit of audio software worth a few hundred dollars. Autocomplete came up, he didn't notice it was going to someone else he'd had dealings with in the past, and clicked Send. The buyer then doesn't get his stuff and complains about the seller, the seller hasn't received money, and the person who was sent money erroneously gets blamed. Complete effin' shambles. 

To be fair to PayPal, the PPG is presumably intended for people making gifts.  I'd also imagine that the vast majority of genuine gifts sent using this method are of relatively small amounts, so in cases where gifts are sent to the wrong address in error it won't be a catastrophe.  I can't see that it's particularly "shoddy" of PP, where they are offering a free service, not to accept responsibility for someone not taking proper care to send money to the right address. 

The example you cite seems largely a consequence of people abusing the system.  They are using a system designed for gifts to sell goods;  the amount is large;  and the payer has confused the addressee because he's doing this repeatedly.  They've deliberately used a less protected system to avoid the PayPal fees that are properly due for this kind of transaction.  The outcome may be a "shambles" but I can't honestly see why PayPal should take any responsibility.  In fact I couldn't blame them if their attitude was along the lines of "Ha Ha, it serves you bloody right".

webrthomson

TBH as a seller both are fraught - PayPal recently changed their T&C's so you are libel for a 180 day period where the buyer can raise an issue. That is a frankly ridiculous period for valve amps and guitars where parts of them will potentially need to be replaced inside that window (by that I mean valves and strings) the failure of either would be grounds for a PayPal claim.

Given that most amp manufacturers explicitly exclude valves from warranty to have you on the hook for 180 days seems off to me - the only amp maker that I'm aware of that even covers valves is Diezel and then only for 3 months, half the PayPal period.

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/paypal-safety-and-security

I do agree with the comments above that I would not use PPG in either direction unless I knew or had dealt with the person in question before - clearly there is no protection because the clue is in the name - gift - you don't get any protection as you've not paid for it.

As a buyer it's a no brainer for the extra 4% to use standard PP.

Sporky

webrthomson said:

As a buyer it's a no brainer for the extra 4% to use standard PP.

Indeed. But (as you point out) as a seller you'd be a complete moron to accept standard PP.

webrthomson

Sporky said:

webrthomson said:

As a buyer it's a no brainer for the extra 4% to use standard PP.

Indeed. But (as you point out) as a seller you'd be a complete moron to accept standard PP.

  Completely its way too one sided - I've not got any experience of the PayPal customer services but I do for the ebay ones and lets say it's not good