Guitar not staying in tune.

seany65

Why would a Guitar suddenly become incapable of staying in tune for more than a minute or two?

It was set up last year by the guitar tech at a local guitar shop and played well until a few weeks ago. I did think that maybe the strings were so old that they had died and not just become 'dull'. (I'd decided to save up to have a few things done to it and so didn't want to waste money on new strings that would only be on for a few weeks, so I left them on a bit longer than I would normally). So I thought maybe that's the problem, so I changed them to see what effect that would have. I did this in the way I always do and have done on the other guitars I've owned. They've been on about a week and should have stretched enough to stay in tune bar a tiny bit of retuning now and then, such as before starting a practice session. But there's been no improvement.

The strings are the same make and model as always. It's a one-piece hard maple neck (according to maker's website).

Would a quarter-sawn maple neck or a 3-piece maple neck have the same trouble?

There's also another problem :

Even when the guitar is in tune sometimes the chords sound crap, and sometimes they sound good. Although recently more often crap than good. I'm learning scales of chords (rather than just scales of notes) as I find it easier to remember chords for a scale than remembering random chords. Anyway, the ones I'm practicing at the moment are open C Major, open A natural minor, open A Harmonic and open A melodic scales of chords.

I did think maybe some of the new chords sound crap to me 'cos I'm not used to them. But I have played them a few times and they've sounded decent enough, but then the guitar goes out of tune. Sometimes they sound crap even when the tuner says they're in tune.

I get the impression that the crap sound of the chords is a separate problem to the guitar going out of tune so much.

I have changed the battery in the tuner, so it probably isn't that. Maybe the jack socket isn't working properly and so the tuner ain't getting an accurate signal? Maybe the cable's not woriking properly?

viz

To check the onboard tuning system, try another tuner, like an iphone app. It's an acoustic guitar is it? Not a bolt-on neck? If it's a bolt-on, maybe it's not seated well and is wobbling? I had that with my chibanez and found that the neck was shimmed with squashy balsa wood. Otherwise, could be the tuning peg gears, or too many winds round the pegs. See if there is any play. And use shorter strings, maximum two winds. Always tune up to a note not down to it. Or the strings not gliding over the nut - add nut sauce or ground-up pencil lead. Or perhaps it's the intonation - check your bridge positions if they're adjustable.

Adam_MD

The truss rod may need to be adjusted to compensate for the hot weather we've had recently. You could be pulling some chords out of tune if the action has raised a little. Hold down the low E at the first fret and where it joins the body then see what kind of gap you have under the 7th and 8th fret. Have a look on YouTube there's load of videos showing you how to check and adjust your truss rod.

GuitarZero

People often think that guitar set up is like an annual service on a car - you get it done and leave it until next year.  This is not true. Guitars can go through subtle changes depending on climate and such and they need adjusting...when they need adjusting.  I would advise either learning to make these adjustments yourself or get the guitar back in for a full set up.

When you put the new strings on did you manually stretch them yourself?  Or do you just rely on playing the guitar to stretch them? You should always manually stretch each string, then re-tune until that string keeps it's tune after stretching.  You also need to make sure the strings are wound properly, I know you said you've strung it the same way as you always do, so that shouldn't be a problem unless you've forgotten and done something different this time.  

In terms of the chords sounding off, this is usually an intonation problem.  Tune up your guitar, press the twelfth fret and see what the tuner says. The fretted twelfth fret should be the same as the open string.  If it's not it can cause the chords to sound off when played on different parts of the neck.  Again, learn how to adjust your intonation or if you're not confident, get it in a shop.

ICBM

There are two different problems - *staying* in tune, and *playing* in tune. Both will make the guitar sound out of tune but they're very different.

If the guitar won't *stay* in tune - ie you tune the open strings, then later they're out of tune - it's either your stringing and/or tuning technique, or friction at either the nut or the bridge, or a trem system not returning perfectly to the right position.

If it won't *play* in tune - ie you tune the open string and then fretted notes and chord aren't right, even though the open strings are when you check them again - either the intonation is off at the bridge, the nut is too high, or in rare cases the nut is in the wrong place or the frets are! Which can sometimes be the case, although very rare with modern guitars.

It is possible that the guitar has changed, most likely the neck relief due to temperature and humidity, or just the wood settling down over time. Too much relief will put the intonation out - sometimes in the middle of the neck even if it appears to be right at the 12th fret. It's also possible that your ear has suddenly improved to the point where you hear things as out of tune that previously you didn't notice… that definitely happened to me after I'd been playing for a while.

GuitarMonkey

When asking for advice of this kind it's always helpful to say what make and model your guitar is.

bingefeller

As well as what's been said I would recommend some sort of lube in the nut and at the bridge.  I use Schumacher Axle Grease and it works great, trem or no trem. 

ESBlonde

In addition to some excellent advise here already: lube the nut, stretch the strings and tune up to pitch.
We are generally assuming this is an acoustic guitar but knowing the make/model of your guitar will help somewhat. If it is acoustic it might also have 'bellied up' where the top dips between the end of the neck and the bridge and bows out behind the bridge. This changes the scale length and raises the action so that the fretted notes are out of pitch. A simple visual inspection looking across the top will likely show this to be the case. Again some pics will help the amassed knowledge here give you better pointers.
 

57Deluxe

If there was an easy answer to this then I would clean up!

Is many factors as already stated and sometimes two factors combining to add insult... BUT one easy and not totally insane solution, is to detune by a couple of cents on your tuner and if there is spongey play on the strings (maybe cos nut too high) then your fretting brings strings up to pitch. Is haphazard, but many guitarists get round issues this way.

If playing with others, then tune to each other and forget about perfect pitch.

Clarky

GuitarMonkey said:

When asking for advice of this kind it's always helpful to say what make and model your guitar is.

totally…

like what type of bridge does your guitar have? hard tail? double locking like a Floyd?

what sort of nut?

is the neck bolted, glued or thru?

I had a bad bad tuning stability prob with one of my RG's.. turned out to be a large and deep crack in the body by a bridge post anchor.. the crack has been fixed, the anchor is stable and now everything is back to normal...

Blueingreen

Sounds like a problem for a competent tech to be honest.  Make sure it's a good one though - if had techs charge me money to fail to solve tuning stability issues more than once.

(The conventional wisdom is that this can't/shouldn't happen.  There are only a few possible explanations and even a half-competent tech should know them backwards.  All I can say is that my experience has been different).

Andyjr1515

ICBM said:

There are two different problems - *staying* in tune, and *playing* in tune. Both will make the guitar sound out of tune but they're very different.

If the guitar won't *stay* in tune - ie you tune the open strings, then later they're out of tune - it's either your stringing and/or tuning technique, or friction at either the nut or the bridge, or a trem system not returning perfectly to the right position.

If it won't *play* in tune - ie you tune the open string and then fretted notes and chord aren't right, even though the open strings are when you check them again - either the intonation is off at the bridge, the nut is too high, or in rare cases the nut is in the wrong place or the frets are! Which can sometimes be the case, although very rare with modern guitars.

It is possible that the guitar has changed, most likely the neck relief due to temperature and humidity, or just the wood settling down over time. Too much relief will put the intonation out - sometimes in the middle of the neck even if it appears to be right at the 12th fret. It's also possible that your ear has suddenly improved to the point where you hear things as out of tune that previously you didn't notice… that definitely happened to me after I'd been playing for a while.

^This

If the guitar is actually going out of tune - that is, you tune it, it's OK; you play it a bit and then it's gone out of tune -  then anything you play will also be affected while ever whatever it is that is sticking sticks, or whatever that's shifting shifts.  

So start there - if you tune it up, then play it a bit and then re-check the open string tuning, has it shifted?  If so, let us know and we'll suggest the simple things to check  

seany65

Thanks to all for the replies.

It's a Rally Neosound. Think of a washburn HB30, but with covered pickups. Here's a link to its page on their website:

http://www.straus.co.kr/neosound.htm

I'm told it could be Korean as it has Jinho tuners, but it could be chinese as it doesn't have the little oval 'korea' label inside. So prolly one of the last koreans they made and they'd run out of labels or an early chinese one and they had a few jinho tuners left.

Stop bar tail piece, tuneomatic style bridge, 2 volume + 2 tone, all maple body, Unspecified tone block, hard maple neck, roseweood fingerboard, presumbly a plastic nut, glued neck, 3-a-side jinho tuners.

Just done a bit of testing. over some minutes I fretted all strings at the 12th fret and then 6th to 2nd strings at the 5th/4th frets. I repeated this a few times. Tuning up each string before it's particular test each time.

At the 12th fret:

6th : string in tune. But  all through tests a new string/fret rattle which I don't think was there the last time I played.

 5th : string seems to be bit flat, by somewhere between the first flat marker and  the 'in tune' marker, but wavers between in and just flat during different 'runs' of the test. New string/fret rattle that I don't thik was there the last time I played.

4th : string was in tune when fretted but now isn't. Maybe new string/fret rattle, but hard to hear.

3rd : string in tune.

2nd : string was slightly flicking to a 'bit sharp' when first played but quickly settled to 'in tune'. Now 'in tune' without flicking.

1st : string in tune.

At the 5th/4th frets :

6th at 5th fret : string in tune.

5th at 5th fret : string in tune.

4th at 5th fret : string in tune.

3rd at 4th ret : string one 'mark' sharp.

2nd at 5th fret : string in tune.

Throughout all tests I retuned each string before its test to eliminate that as a variable. The strings often actually needed to be retuned. The 2nd string seemed to need bigger turns to get it in tune from being sharp or flat.

I did stretch the strings a little more than usual this time. I normally just press them down a few times between the neck and bridge and this is usually enough for them to stay in tune for an hour or so after a couple of days. This time I pulled them up a little along the length and moved them side to side like bending.

seany65

Andyj, the 2 problems seem to be :

1) I tune it, I play, it goes out of tune, I retune etc.

2) While its in tune the chords sound crap some of the time and sound decent some of the time.

These things have happened over tha past few weeks.

Nerine

Could be any one of:

Nut
Truss rod
String gauge
String age
Frets
Intonation
Bridge

So basically anything...

seany65

@ Nerine, The strings a new and the same gauge as always.

I think the tech who set it up for me last year, said he'd re-cut the nut. I don't think a nut would suddenly go wrong after nearly a year of the guitar sounding decent enough.

Earlier I noticed some string rattle around the 12th fret (I didn't really test any frets close to either side of the 12th fret) on the bass side, which I hadn't noticed the other day.

@ ICBM, I don't think my hearing would have improved in such a way that the chords sometimes sound in tune and sometimes out of tune, with more often being out of tune as time's gone on.

GuitarZero

If the guitars set up is off (for any of the reasons given previously), it's not gonna play or sound as good as it should.  If you can't diagnose the problem yourself then you're not going to be able to fix it.  Give it to someone who can.

Marktigere1

You would be amazed how much grief a Nut can give.  (Got the T Shirt)

To roughly check the Nut height,  press down on the string at the Third Fret (First dot).

Then check there is a tiny gap between the string and the first fret.

Do this for each string.

If the gap is large (greater than a couple of sheets of paper, though this does depend on the guitar and action) then the nut is too high and any fretted chord near the nut will be out of tune even if the open strings are in tune (unlikely though as you said it was okay after the tech looked at it)

If no gap, nut too low.

You can use a capo at the third fret to push all the strings down which can help.

If all okay I would look at lubricating the nut as a first option before letting a tech look at it again.

Cheers

Maynehead

I had similar problems once and it was because the stoptail posts/brushings were being slowly ripped out of the body by the string tension.

Check that the brushings under the stoptail are stil flush against guitar body.

ThePrettyDamned

Stretch the strings in properly by bending them, then checking then doing it over and over.

It sounds like your truss rod definitely needs a tweak, from new rattles and out of tune chords.

Your tuning issues sound like your strings are not stretched in properly - pressing against the frets won't do it. Big bends on all the strings should do it. Then check your intonation.

Nerine

To stretch strings, hold them down at the fifth fret or so (so it doesn't exit the nut), and then pull the rest of each string away from the neck/ into the air in turn.
When I'm recording, I do this all the time on other peoples guitars. They always look alarmed like I'm going to break something. Lol
Obviously don't go so mad that it breaks the string though. I've done that as well.
You'll usually find there'll be a good few tones of slack in the lower strings and maybe a semitone to a tone of slack in the higher ones.


It'll also make you very aware of how stretched in your strings weren't.