Gordon Smith and Richard's Guitars

DamianP

Jez6345789;109025" said:

Hi Thought I would chip in here with my maiden post as its a subject that quite interests me, about the UK's attitude to making stuff.I have nothing to do with guitar trade but do run a small business importing and distributing.I think the views expressed here especially by UK builders is exactly the same as in my business.Hence we  import from the US, Italy, Germany. Where people seem to over come the fear and stigma of failure and get on with the process of creating a product.

Importing goods is exporting money.  I don`t approve.

I`ve created several "products" here in the UK.  They are available.  They sell all over the world.    I have no fear of failure.   

The wish from a lot of people here for an affordable UK produced design as well as higher priced means demand exists. 

Not all "demands" are possible.   Affordable for who?

I looked at Jaydens breakdown earlier in the thread and presented that way it does not make any economical sense or even seem possible but thats from the view point of most UK builders who are largely bespoke boutique operations selling into a niche market. As Jayden said he would not want to be Gibson.

Poor attention to detail.



I think the point being missed here is if you are going to be building a 600-700 pound guitar then you have to be thinking at selling more than a few hundred per year and you have to be realistic about buying and sourcing components. Something that seems alien to UK builders as they are all mostly wanting to build guitars and sell from the stand point of hand built, pixie dust and Unicorn horn nuts. In reality do Mercedes make every component that goes into their cars, do the bigger guitar manufacturers make all the necks and parts that go into making a budget or mid priced guitar no they source where appropriate, make what they can do well and assemble and finish. 

Nothing has been missed.

I know many guitar makers.  I don`t know one who subscribes to the marketing methods you describe.  They seem to be more a figment of the imagination of those who would dismiss the efforts of people who strive to do their best.

There is merit in doing something well.  No?   Honest pursuit of high quality seems like something that should be praised rather than derided.

The real difference is thinking like a manufacturer not a bespoke builder, the skill set is quite different its not about building the best guitar you can its about managing supply chain, quality control, and making the right compromises that are acceptable to your target market. 

It`s a requirement whatever your "target market".     

For exampleA middle level home player, perhaps gigging out a few times a month, but a family to raise is not going to expect frets buffed by elves but needs a well set up working instrument that has a bit of cred and Kudos that they can make their own. They do not expect rare wood 1 or two piece bodies, old stock Honduras  Mahogany necks lovingly caressed into a unique profile, that is the very signature from the makers soul. 

Maybe, maybe not. 

Ultimately we can make guitars in the UK we just need a good design a well thought out marketing strategy and a little ambition, something we seem to have in short supply in the UK. 

I do make guitars in the UK.  I`m not alone.   There is no shortage of designs or ambition.   Not from where I sit anyway.

As more of a marketing guy you also need a grass roots campaign to drive dealers to stock product, in the days of the internet its a hell of a lot easier to reach people and get that sort of vibe going. Demand from enthusiasts telling dealers is what puts a guitar in a store and makes the store think beyond their comfort zone. That said I get the impression in the UK that the whole Fender/Gibson style master dealer thing is all a bit of a monopolistic play to keep out independents by forcing stores to commit to specific space requirements and models. That said a scrappy upstart with a good grass roots following will easily give the big boys a bloody nose from time to time. 

I`m working on it.  Every day.      Offers of help gratefully considered.

A bit of a rant for starters but its a subject I am passionate about. 

Passion is good.  I`m all for it.  

regards jez

WezV

ThePrettyDamned said:

I take it back!

And I agree about not building to a price point. Also, was it you that converted a headless into a v recently? That sort of thing probably wouldn't go to a 'normal' company.

yeah, I seem to get quite a few oddball projects come my way.  

57Deluxe

I remember in oldun days when Making Music magazine was always covering Gordon Smith guitars. At that time Paul Reed Smith was starting out too and I was always getting them confused. Back then the Gordon Smiths were considered the better...

This is not a Gordon Smith..!

jpfamps

WezV said:

Its not a sad picture at all.  I love my main job, i get paid well for it along with nice benefits  (better than average holidays, good pay, free health care, free beer, flexi time etc....)

Free beer! My favourite brand..

streethawk

dindude;109776" said:

Patrick Eggle came closest to the ideal in the early 90's I think, properly presented production instruments (rather than the guitar equivalent of home brew beer) with providence, but at a reasonable price for a pro instrument. And that didn't work out for long for what ever reason. 

-----------------------

To expand on something I touched upon earlier:

The name; when I was a young guitarist I thought anything made in the UK was uncool and Eggle - reminded me of a boiled egg - was not helping. 

Too dear at the time anyway.

Design was basically an ersatz version of the much cooler named PRS.

Now PRS guitars were a bit middle aged but those dragon inlays and birds, whale blue finishes, did sort of catch young streethawk's eye.

Yes, Eggle's guitars may well have been 'well priced pro instruments', but I reckon most people buying guitars never leave their bedroom or just rehearse with their mates for fun. 

Come up with a really cool shape, have a decent name, hopefully attract an iconic endorser.

I don't know of a single UK manufacturer that has done that. Ever. 

ddlooping

streethawk said:

Come up with a really cool shape, have a decent name, hopefully attract an iconic endorser.

I don't know of a single UK manufacturer that has done that. Ever. 

"Diaz Guitars - The Ghost"

I'm not a manufacturer though. :-S 

streethawk

ddlooping said:

streethawk said:

Come up with a really cool shape, have a decent name, hopefully attract an iconic endorser.

I don't know of a single UK manufacturer that has done that. Ever. 

"Diaz Guitars - The Ghost"

I'm not a manufacturer though. :-S 

You should be!

ddlooping

streethawk said:

You should be!

 Thanks.  

streethawk

ddlooping said:

streethawk said:

You should be!

 Thanks.  

If you'd like me to endorse, just send a Diaz Ghost my way. 

 

Streethawk. Supporting UK business

crunchman

streethawk said:

Come up with a really cool shape, have a decent name, hopefully attract an iconic endorser.

I don't know of a single UK manufacturer that has done that. Ever. 

The big name endorser is key I think. I remember reading how Paul Reed Smith would get backstage at gigs with people like Santana in his early days and put his guitars in front of them.

By the time he started factory production Santana had been playing one for years, and I think the guy from Heart had been playing an early hand built one as well.

The difference with PRS and what Jaden said above is that Paul Smith does the manufacturing and marketing stuff well (or employs good people to do it for him).  He's not just a craftsman, and the craft isn't his only interest.

I don't think he was an overnight thing though.  I think he started with himself, but I think he'd expanded to have 2 or 3 other people working with him before they started "factory" production.

monquixote

Manson are a UK builder with some big names (Matt Bellamy and JPJ). Interesting to see if they can build something from it.

streethawk

monquixote said:

Manson are a UK builder with some big names (Matt Bellamy and JPJ). Interesting to see if they can build something from it.

I stand corrected.

Good luck to Manson. 

crunchman

I guess it depends on whether they want the stress of running a manufacturing enterprise?

Devon seems to be quite a hotbed of guitar stuff relatively speaking.  You have BKP and Brook as well.

Brook are a little bigger than the usual 1 man operation,  Last I heard there were 4 of them.  There seems to be more of a market for UK built acoustics though.  You also have Fylde, Atkin, Eggle, Northworthy, Dave King, David Antony Reid, Moon, Lowden all making good instruments.  I'm sure I've forgotten one or two.

EricTheWeary

monquixote said:

Manson are a UK builder with some big names (Matt Bellamy and JPJ). Interesting to see if they can build something from it.

but they have had big name endorsement (JPJ at least) for decades and never made it to a wider buying public. Wether they really tried to I don't know.

Sid Poole had name endorsees (okay Bernie Marsden and the Hamsters come to mind...) and he never became a household name either. The collaboration with Westone and Status was a financial flop at the time.

Ahh, Status - surely the most succesfull UK guitar brand ever? Although they could never really sell many guitars, just basses. Perhaps being endorsed by the tiny fella out of Musical Youth wasn't quite enough...
 

monquixote

Actually their site suggests: Dave Grohl, Simon Neil, and Kelly Jones also play them. 

I think the've made a bit of a play to up volume with the MA Series which are under £1K

crunchman

Not made in the UK though.  SImilar model to Duesenberg.

Our M-Series guitars are all manufactured in our Czech Republic factory but do not get into your hands until they have been to the Works! Here our luthier team checks every single guitar, resets the action once again and carries out a further final inspection, then the guitar is either readied for Works action or packed into a quality Manson Gig-Bag for shipping to your available dealer.

EdGrip

streethawk said:

I find British guitars to be derivative and/or a bit dated.

To a lot of people, figured tops and superstrats just aren't cool. But we do seem to build a lot of them.

New brands I like the look of tend to be from overseas, like Fano.

Not mad keen on the branding either:

Gordon Smith. If I had the misfortune to be named Gordon I would hide that from the general public. Or at least wrap it in a better font.

Patrick Eggle = eggy. Just, no. 

Burns is a good name but look at the state of them! The stringed equivalent of the austin allegro. 

And then there's Chappers. If Chappers (I'm sure he's a lovely fella etc) is the face of British guitar in the digital age, we might as well get on our raliegh choppers, ride home, stick on some Darkness and leave the cool American kids to it.

I LOL'd hard, because it's all true. 

I look at these figured-top twin-humbucker superstrats the UK builders make (sorry guys) and I think, I am so disconnected from these instruments. I wouldn't be mates with these guitars if I met them at a gig. I ponder the owner/player of these guitars, and unbidden the World of Warcraft player from South Park pops into my head. Now, I assume that the £1k upwards price bracket (which, sorry and all that, but that is "boutique" territory) is not aimed at anyone young and part of whatever new music is being made in little venues with sticky floors and 4 bands for £7. These guitars are aimed at home players, collectors, guitar fetishists. (Does something happen when you reach a certain age where you go, "I MUST HAVE TURQUOISE FLAME MAPLE!"?) 

No guitar brand with that market and that styling will ever be cool enough to have a must-have vibe about them (alright, PRS, but y'know...) 

Your brand needs to be part of something. Part of a scene, part of the first flush where we find music that our parents don't like and want to make noise - be it metal (I was sorry to see Maverick go) or punk or something else present and energetic and new. 

The problem is that Fender have a Telecaster to sell to the disposable-income World of Warcraft player AND a Telecaster to sell to the guitarist in a young indie punk band, and both will feel an affinity with the guitar, feel that it fits in with what they're doing. The same can be said of Gibson. 

But ultimately, getting your guitar in the hands of the young musicians that other people will aspire to be in 10 or 20 years time is crucial. If no-one's seen your guitar in shaky close-up at Glastonbury, they can't aspire to it on anything other than an objective level.

I haven't got any answers, sorry.

EdGrip

The UK-builder electric guitars that I lust after are Black Spot Guitars. I'm tempted to nick the idea for my bass.

streethawk

EdGrip said:

streethawk said:

*genius commentary*

(Does something happen when you reach a certain age where you go, "I MUST HAVE TURQUOISE FLAME MAPLE!"?) 

I'm 41 and am remain wholly averse to quilted tops etc. 

I'm not saying guitars should be like violins - pretty much one look and that's that - but I suspect most people prefer a quirky or 'authentic' aesthetic over the luxury look. Relics (hence the parenthesis on authentic), offsets, that kind of thing.

Seems odd that a budding company would market towards the flame madagascan monkeywood crowd, unless you've identified a price point that tallies with luxury goods. I dunno. 

usedtobe

I had a bit of a fancy top-fancying phase, a few years ago. I never bought one, though, and it's passed, now!