fender tweed deluxe questions

benmurray85

so i grabbed one of these off ebay for a decent price. my question is this. why doesn't it drive?

it stays relatively clean right up to 10 on both channels, just gets LOUD!!!!! I've played numerous valve amps so know what to expect. i was looking for something small for playing clean at home that i could drive the shit out of for small gigs. i thought it'd get to a loud level at home but be able to get some sort of drive out of it, even at "loud" home volumes?

its still a great clean sound (obviously) just a bit disappointed that if i wanna gig it I'm gonna have to use pedals again!

ICBM

What valve does it have in V1? A 12AY7 - which is the correct original spec, but from when the amp was designed and clean volume was the goal - will give it much less drive than a 12AX7.

Even with a 12AX7 it will get louder than home volume before it really breaks up - to get it distorting a lot quieter than that without using a pedal, you need an attenuator. Luckily it's only 15W so you don't need a huge or expensive one.

koneguitarist

Are we talking tweed deluxe with single tone and two volumes or later blues tweed deluxe ? The old Tweed 12w is great for overdrive, it could be the preamp valves are changed to 12AT7 instead of 12AX7

benmurray85

would v1 be the larger rectifier valve or the first of the smaller valves? 

the guy i bought it off supplied one thats fitted and a spare for MORE clean headroom. i shall go and check. tbh though I'm not fussed for driving the shit out of it at home. in fact i rarely play amped up at home but wanted drive sounds at gig volumes

benmurray85

koneguitarist said:

Are we talking tweed deluxe with single tone and two volumes or later blues tweed deluxe ? The old Tweed 12w is great for overdrive, it could be the preamp valves are changed to 12AT7 instead of 12AX7

single tone and two volumes. valve compliment is an unmarked rectifier valve??? 2x6v6's a 12ax7 and a 12ay7

this help?

koneguitarist

Change 12AY7 for a new 12AX7 more gain to overdrive front end.

koneguitarist

Sorry ICBM, didn't see your post till later. This what they should sound like. http://www.tweeddeluxe.com

benmurray85

cheers cheers cheers guys! will swap out that valve then. cheers for the vid link as well. thats the sound I'm after tbh! can't get anywhere near those levels of drive at the mo.....

ICBM

Bear in mind that it will increase the maximum gain and lower the breakup point on the volume controls quite a lot, but it's still going to be at about the same final volume - the distortion from these amps comes from the phase inverter and power valves, and you can't make that happen at lower volume even if you push more signal into them... you just get there sooner.

So if that volume is still too high for a gig - which it might be, at some gigs - you'll still need either a dirt pedal or an attenuator.


@koneguitarist - I should probably let other people who know about these things post first sometimes .

57Deluxe

Also - what speaker you got in there?

benmurray85

massive thank guys, was beginning to think it was me or that there may be something more serious going on as the difference between was i was hearing and what i had been expecting was so different.

i shall get the valves changed out asap. speaker is an eminence patriot red white and blues? i know shit about speakers

one last question regarding the valve change. can i just throw the new ones in (assuming I'm changing the pair?) or will i need to get it serviced/biased?

cheers 

koneguitarist

You only need to change the smallest one, the 12AY7. No biasing or servicing required. Just make sure valves are cool to touch with amp off. Let us know how you get on. Speaker is fine.

ICBM

benmurray85 said:

massive thank guys, was beginning to think it was me or that there may be something more serious going on as the difference between was i was hearing and what i had been expecting was so different.

There's a fairly big difference in gain and tone between the 12AY7 and the 12AX7 - the 12AX7 has roughly twice the gain and a more midrangy, aggressive tone than the 12AY7.

The 12AY7 is the 'correct' valve that the circuit was designed for, but as with all amps designed before the end of the 60s, the goal was maximum volume and headroom - distortion was accidental, and undesirable to the amp designers. Luckily, Fender achieved it by using a lower-gain valve type rather than a more conservative circuit design, so you can reverse it by swapping valves.

Keep the 12AY7, it will be useful if you ever do want a nice clean tone for recording or something. It also works well to 'tame' other amps which have too much gain by design, or too aggressive a tone. (eg some Mesas and Peaveys.)

No need to bias - preamp valves are operated in 'self bias' normally - an the speaker is fine, as koneguitarist said.

martinw

benmurray85 said:

so i grabbed one of these off ebay for a decent price. my question is this. why doesn't it drive?

it stays relatively clean right up to 10 on both channels, just gets LOUD!!!!!

Hmmm. I wonder if it's been modded?

Even with a 12AY7 in V1, it should still break up fairly readily, well before 10. The 5E3 is quite a crude circuit, so there are loads of commonly done mods to refine it to suit modern playing styles. I believe the idea with 50s Fender amps was that the player would use the guitar controls a lot more than is often the case today.

Add to that, that (as ICBM said) distortion was not desirable, and it was assumed the user would back off before it arose, thus the character of the distortion wasn't too important. Hence the 5E3's slightly rough and ragged break up. (Versus the smoother break-up of the long-tailed pair equipped 5F6 for example, designed at a stage where an amp's sound when cranked as loud as it would go had become a factor. To wit Dick Dale).

Most people are disappointed with how dirty a Tweed Deluxe is, if they were expecting Fender cleans and headroom!

57Deluxe

All the distortion in a 5e3 Tweed circuit comes not from the preamp but POWER tubes. In the 5e3 any volume past 4 on the dial is just saturation and compression. The optimal settings are always:

Les Paul: Jumper channels  Bright2 into Normal1 Input into Bright1+ Vol 1@4 and Vol2@2 + Tone @8.2 (Neil Young tone)

Strat: (unjumpered)  Input Bright1  + Vol 1@4  Vol 2@4 + Tone@10 (Doobie Bros/Bandmaster tone)

(Pic shows jumper positions - not optimum dial positions)

ICBM

57Deluxe said:

All the distortion in a 5e3 Tweed circuit comes not from the preamp but POWER tubes.

And the phase inverter, which is a preamp-type valve but considered part of the power amp usually.

The intermediate gain stage - the first half of V2, and which is definitely part of the preamp - might distort at higher settings too. (I haven't scoped it and I don't have one to hand to try.)

benmurray85

MASSIVE thanks to everyone above. valve ordered and caznt wait for its arrival

lespaulcustom68

I have a Clark beaufort - handwired job from the US which i run with a 12AY7 in V1.  Really good clean upto about the 4 on the volumes a little more if channels not jumped, then the compression and sustain etc comes in . Played it in a band context about two weeks ago with (about 600 screaming kids) - i found i got drowned out when taking a lead - particularly loud 'kids' maybe?? Depending on size of gigs you should keep hold of that 12AY7. Have to break out the Marshall / Mesa head next time me thinks
:-$

ICBM

lespaulcustom68 said:

I have a Clark beaufort - handwired job from the US which i run with a 12AY7 in V1.  Really good clean upto about the 4 on the volumes a little more if channels not jumped, then the compression and sustain etc comes in . Played it in a band context about two weeks ago with (about 600 screaming kids) - i found i got drowned out when taking a lead - particularly loud 'kids' maybe?? Depending on size of gigs you should keep hold of that 12AY7. Have to break out the Marshall / Mesa head next time me thinks
:-$

Just get a really loud old cheap solid-state transistor combo and connect the extension speaker jack on the amp (I think the Clark has one) to it via a level pad (simple two-resistor divider which will protect the other amp input from the speaker-level output) and… instant Neil Young volume from your Deluxe . That's exactly what he does.

lespaulcustom68

Yep it's got one. Always assumed it was simply for another cab option - but never found as good a sound from other speakers as the origional. Can i try this into other valve amps? If i use that output am i loading the deluxe beyond the  normal 8ohm speaker level?
Any recommended level pad's out there???

ICBM

If you're going through a pad into another amp - that is, into the signal input not the speaker - then it isn't changing the impedance load on the Deluxe. (Which in any case is designed to take a mismatch, and is why it doesn't need an impedance selector.)

A simple passive 'volume box' will work fine for a pad, as long as you don't turn it up full. You can buy them for about £20, or build your own for under a tenner.