EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Clarky

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Clarky said:

I saw the debate this evening…

Dave just seemed to provide almost every question with the same answer re-worded a bit each time..

Nige generally seemed to have more variety in his responses [even though some of the questions were too similar]

Nige seemed to me to be more convincing than Dave if for no other reason than trying to talk about more than just one aspect of leaving..

I'm still undecided…

however.. one point did come up that struck a nerve…

it was the threat from the EU President to punish / make an example of the UK if it leaves

so… is this a shot across the bows for any other country thinking of bailing out?

seemed to me like… "if you're in you're ok, if you leave we'll screw you"

that is almost an imperial way of dealing with things..

it's like some sort of passive occupation..

comes to something when allies and partners make threats like that

... and if THAT's their attitude I definitely don't want to stay

I would be more than happy if someone manages to prove that I misunderstood this..

because it just fkn stinks so bad that I would love to be wrong..

Clarky

Fretwired said:

Clarky said:

I'm still undecided…

however.. one point did come up that struck a nerve…

it was the threat from the EU President to punish / make an example of the UK if it leaves

Read what other ex-politicians think .. if we vote to leave the EU they want the UK trashed, especially the guy from Poland who no doubts loves all the UK benefits that get remitted back to his country .. love the bit about getting Scotland to leave the UK .. we are mugs ..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/25/uk-should-be-punished-if-it-leaves-european-union-to-deter-other-exits

that is just so offensive..

I thought the EU was supposed to be a thing that nations join to work together in the common interests of all..

and if the EU project looks like it's no longer working for any country they should be free to leave without consequences above and beyond losing the benefits of being a club member..

this is nothing like a country trying to free themselves from a foreign imperial occupation

and it's nothing like Kent declaring independence for example

This:

The Polish former deputy prime minister Leszek Balcerowicz said Britain would be used as example. “We should not encourage other populist forces campaigning on exit such as National Front in France or Podemos in Spain. 

is nothing like what is happening in the UK..

I thought that the UK leaving had very little to do with the ascension extreme right wing nationalist politics

if the EU project was really getting into that much trouble, trying to force membership by fear of retribution is just so wrong..

This:

Others predicted efforts would be made to woo Scotland to remain in the EU and peel away from the UK.

is just pure spite

I was glad the Scotland elected to remain part of the UK.. 

I am English born, of Scots decent [grandfather], Spanish decent [grandmother] and very proud of all of it..

the people of Scotland made a choice that was wholly theirs to make, the EU trying to interfere with this decision is just plain nasty..

This is what I'd expect a grown up to say:

Norman Lamont representing a post-Brexit UK at the wargame said: “The UK’s economic future would not be determined by the politicians but by the the people of this country. The EU is too remote, it is incomprehensible, we need a different sort of relationship. Trade depends on willing buyers and willing sellers, and is not determined by politics alone. I do not know what will happen and I think a constructive approach is required by everybody and acrimony should be put to one side.”

Chalky

Clarky;1102330" said:

Col_Decker said:



Clarky said:

I'm still undecided…however.. one point did come up that struck a nerve…it was the threat from the EU President to punish / make an example of the UK if it leavesso… is this a shot across the bows for any other country thinking of bailing out?seemed to me like… "if you're in you're ok, if you leave we'll screw you"that is almost an imperial way of dealing with things..it's like some sort of passive occupation..comes to something when allies and partners make threats like that





That's where I'm at too. Similarly with Obama's 'back of the queue' comment. I can't vote remain when the place is basically ran by Tyrants who are so willing to abuse their power.










the 'back of the queue' comment made sense to me..if you're negotiating trade agreements, you'll want to prioritise the listso the UK wouldn't come out at the front of that..I think the US wanting the UK in comes from what the US thinks is in the best interests of the US..in the EU, the UK is one of the bigger members, the US has a lot in common with the UK [culture, language, history, military alliance etc], so I'm guessing that the US would like to influence the UK prior to trying to influence the EU as a whole.. the UK would be the thing that paves the way for things the US would like to address with the EU..so if the UK is out, the US loses it's voice on the inside

the whole 'EU will make an example of the UK' thing seems bitter and spiteful to me..not the stuff of major international powers involved in a community that impacts trade worth so much and the lives of so many people.. it's more like a dumped girlfriend getting her own back..if the UK leaves, will it find it's clothes ripped to shreds and dumped on the drive too??

I'm not so bothered about immigration.. I can't be because more than half my family are not only not British, but are immigrants living all over the world..if anything made me more inclined to vote leave, it was that threat of retribution from the EU..I'm not so sure I'd like to be a part of something that vile..

The back of the queue made sense? Prioritise a list? What do you think it is - a Washington Office with a bored receptionist behind a window labelled 'TRADE AGREEMENT APPLICATIONS HERE'? )

Question 1 - What are trade agreements for? To make money. If the world's fifth largest economy wants to trade with you, what do you want to do? Make a trade agreement. Why? See question 1.

But what about countries who won't make a trade agreement with us because we left the EU? Will they hurt us?

You mean like Germany? They could slap a tariff on our exports to Germany. 10%? Would make our exports look expensive, maybe knock 10% off our almost one billion Euros per week. Could hurt us!

Except we'd just slap the same tariff on German exports to the UK. Which are almost TWO billion Euros per week.

When it comes to Germans and trade tariffs, its a case of 'If they split our lip we bust their jaw'.

chillidoggy

On the plus side, there could well be a lot less BMW's and Audis on the road.

Fretwired

Chalky said:

Clarky;1102330" said:

Col_Decker said:



Clarky said:

I'm still undecided…however.. one point did come up that struck a nerve…it was the threat from the EU President to punish / make an example of the UK if it leavesso… is this a shot across the bows for any other country thinking of bailing out?seemed to me like… "if you're in you're ok, if you leave we'll screw you"that is almost an imperial way of dealing with things..it's like some sort of passive occupation..comes to something when allies and partners make threats like that





That's where I'm at too. Similarly with Obama's 'back of the queue' comment. I can't vote remain when the place is basically ran by Tyrants who are so willing to abuse their power.










the 'back of the queue' comment made sense to me..if you're negotiating trade agreements, you'll want to prioritise the listso the UK wouldn't come out at the front of that..I think the US wanting the UK in comes from what the US thinks is in the best interests of the US..in the EU, the UK is one of the bigger members, the US has a lot in common with the UK [culture, language, history, military alliance etc], so I'm guessing that the US would like to influence the UK prior to trying to influence the EU as a whole.. the UK would be the thing that paves the way for things the US would like to address with the EU..so if the UK is out, the US loses it's voice on the inside

the whole 'EU will make an example of the UK' thing seems bitter and spiteful to me..not the stuff of major international powers involved in a community that impacts trade worth so much and the lives of so many people.. it's more like a dumped girlfriend getting her own back..if the UK leaves, will it find it's clothes ripped to shreds and dumped on the drive too??

I'm not so bothered about immigration.. I can't be because more than half my family are not only not British, but are immigrants living all over the world..if anything made me more inclined to vote leave, it was that threat of retribution from the EU..I'm not so sure I'd like to be a part of something that vile..

The back of the queue made sense? Prioritise a list? What do you think it is - a Washington Office with a bored receptionist behind a window labelled 'TRADE AGREEMENT APPLICATIONS HERE'? )

Question 1 - What are trade agreements for? To make money. If the world's fifth largest economy wants to trade with you, what do you want to do? Make a trade agreement. Why? See question 1.

But what about countries who won't make a trade agreement with us because we left the EU? Will they hurt us?

You mean like Germany? They could slap a tariff on our exports to Germany. 10%? Would make our exports look expensive, maybe knock 10% off our almost one billion Euros per week. Could hurt us!

Except we'd just slap the same tariff on German exports to the UK. Which are almost TWO billion Euros per week.

When it comes to Germans and trade tariffs, its a case of 'If they split our lip we bust their jaw'.

Unfortunately for the EU we already have a trade agreement via the WTO so the EU doesn't have a lot of wriggle room.

The militant mob are the eastern Europeans whose economies have benefited from having workers in the UK.

ToneControl

I can tell you that the current EU import and export systems are fully integrated into each country's IT systems

It took years to build it. HMRC runs the UK system

It means that any postal parcel, goods on planes, boats, lorries or contents containers entering the EU must be declared into a central system, via the IT systems of the country of the first port of entry

http://ec.europa.eu/ecip/help/faq/ens7_en.htm

But - this includes Norway and Switzerland

Therefore it would be pragmatically unlikely that we would be able to withdraw from this, and it would cause chaos to the EU if we did, since we are the first port of entry for a lot of stuff (i.e. first stop for boats carrying on to the mainland)

This is another reason why the EU is unlikely to make stupid self destructive bitchy decisions about trade tariffs

I looked up the WTO tariffs, which are almost certainly the fallback if we did not remain in EFTA

They average (weighted) is 1.5%. Big deal, not life-changing really

ToneControl

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

littlegreenman

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

ICBM

I also don't believe Turkey will join in the even distantly foreseeable future despite some Eurocrats seeming to want it and a lot of scaremongering about it from the Leave camp. As littlegreenman says it requires a unanimous vote from all existing member states, and I can't see that happening.

Turkey seems to be almost deliberately making it harder for itself at the moment too. Unless there's a radical backlash against Erdogan and his clique, it will only move further in that direction.

If Serbia gets in first and thus also has a veto, Turkey will never be allowed in - 600 years of Balkan history says so, and they have *very* long memories there. Personally I would be happy for Serbia to join if it fulfils the usual conditions - it's a European nation culturally.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

I also don't believe Turkey will join in the even distantly foreseeable future despite some Eurocrats seeming to want it and a lot of scaremongering about it from the Leave camp. As littlegreenman says it requires a unanimous vote from all existing member states, and I can't see that happening.

Turkey seems to be almost deliberately making it harder for itself at the moment too. Unless there's a radical backlash against Erdogan and his clique, it will only move further in that direction.

If Serbia gets in first and thus also has a veto, Turkey will never be allowed in - 600 years of Balkan history says so, and they have *very* long memories there. Personally I would be happy for Serbia to join if it fulfils the usual conditions - it's a European nation culturally.

Personally I'm most uncomfortable about Serbia, with it's very recent history of genocide, for which the current population apparently feel no remorse

ToneControl

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

I wonder if we remain, we might find ourselves in the same situation as West Germany after reunification - where 65m West Germans still pay an extra 5.5% income tax to help rebuild (the much smaller - only 12.5m people) East Germany. So far they have paid more than 2000 billion Euros.

What if we were compelled by voters in poor, bankrupt South and Eastern Europe to pay an extra 10% income tax permanently, to pay to bring their countries up to UK standards - How many of us would be happy to do that? Turkey is on the list for inclusion soon - that is a country with a large population than the UK, and huge poverty

As far as I'm aware, Turkey has a long way to go before even being considered for inclusion. And that's ahead of even one member state veto'ing it, and I'm guessing at least one will. Ergo, no deal.

At least, that's how I'm reading the lay of the land. If I'm wrong, feel free to edumacate me.

Even if it's 10 years or 20, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

can I return you to my main point - are you happy to leave the UK (e.g. my kids) to potentially be hammered with long-term taxes to upgrade countries over 1000 miles away?

ICBM

I'm not sure the majority of Serbs feel any less remorse now than the majority of Germans did when they joined what was then the EEC only twelve years after WWII. The rehabilitation of Germany and the prevention of future conflict is one of the main reasons for the EU in the first place.

RandallFlagg

government extends registration deadline to gain more youth remain votes

UnclePsychosis

RandallFlagg said:

government extends registration deadline to gain more youth remain votes

Damn you democracy! Down with this sort of thing! 

Phil_aka_Pip

UnclePsychosis said:

RandallFlagg said:

government extends registration deadline to gain more youth remain votes

Damn you democracy! Down with this sort of thing! 

HMG doesn't give a shit for "democracy". It wouldn't take such action if it thought that the yoof were more likely to vote OUT

ICBM

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

hugbot

Came of age in the recession and aren't keen on 3+ more years of it?

UnclePsychosis

Imagine actually being upset that more people might get to vote in one of the biggest political questions in years.

Seriously, imagine being that kind of person.

Sambostar

Let's be honest, we all know what will happen when people hit that polling booth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZrgxHvNNUc

Sambostar

ICBM said:

If the yoof are more likely to vote In, why would that be?

Because some of them are stupid, selfish, short sighted and pig ignorant?