EU Referendum Vote - Poll

littlegreenman

Mkjackary said:

Good on you for correcting yourself though. The extra percent counts

No worries, I have no problem admitting when I've made a mistake.

I've said since the start of this campaign I'd happily change my vote if presented with a logical, fact based reason to do so. As yet I've not heard one, and am unlikely to before tomorrow.

The debate here has been, on the whole, about the most sensible I've seen on the matter, unlike the official campaigns on both sides.

Bidley

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The system is rigged, but hey who cares. It looks like democracy so it must be.

 

Maybe we should address some of these problems first, before criticising anyone else's system for not being democratic enough.

How do you propose we do that?

UnclePsychosis

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The system is rigged, but hey who cares. It looks like democracy so it must be.

Just like the British FPTP electoral system which usually rewards the largest minority with near-absolute power for five years, in which time they can come up with almost any wheeze they want to which the public never voted for or agreed to - even the minority who did actually vote them into office - and push it through parliament.

And the only guarantor of holding up or moderating any of this - not blocking it entirely - is an unelected higher chamber now composed only of the appointees of the last few governments who haven't died yet.

And the final guarantor of our freedoms - who has the power to refuse to sign any legislation, or dismiss the government, or choose whoever she wants to form the next one, if she really so chooses - and who has the personal sworn loyalty of the armed forces to back her up if it comes to it - is a woman who got the job because it was her father's, and his father before him, and so on via very circuitous route back to the Norman Conquest.

But it looks vaguely like democracy and we call it that, so it must be.

Maybe we should address some of these problems first, before criticising anyone else's system for not being democratic enough.

(And for what it's worth I am not unhappy about the Queen having that power.)

Excellent post. Far more eloquent than anything I could have managed. 

I currently live in a country which is governed by the Conservatives despite the fact that less than 2% of its MPs are Conservatives. Scotland gets a far worse "democratic" deal from the UK than the UK gets from the EU, but we stayed because the benefits of being part of a larger political union outweigh the fact that we have to put up with our neighbours decisions from time to time. 

fretmeister

The winner of the award for most disgraceful element of the entire campaign

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/22/vote-leave-flew-a-plane-over-jo-cox-birthday-memorial-service-5960903/?ito=twitter

Heartfeltdawn

quarky said:

And the Strawman Award goes too.... @Heartfeltdawn. Well done, come and collect it when you are ready

Strawman - where someone attempts to refute someone else's argument by introducing a different proposition. 

Yours was not an argument. It was an opinion as you indeed stated therefore there is no argument for me to refute. To me it is absurd to dictate as you did. Of course someone voting Remain can complain about specific things in the future. 

So I'm afraid I will turn down your Strawman Award but I will happily accept the Woodrow W. Wyatt Award for Nonsensical Fun. 

ToneControl

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

the Leave campaign has explained what is likely, but defers to the elected Uk government to make the selections

the remain campaign has not admitted that "remain" does not mean "stay the same". The EU in 10 years will be very different, my guess is that the Uk will be more different than if it leaves the EU. The Eurozone and bailouts and reconstruction of the Eastern and Southern states will dominate, and it looks likely that the UK would be compelled to join the Eurozone. You already know all the other issues (Law, military, political union)

quarky

Heartfeltdawn said:

quarky said:

And the Strawman Award goes too.... @Heartfeltdawn. Well done, come and collect it when you are ready

Strawman - where someone attempts to refute someone else's argument by introducing a different proposition. 

Yours was not an argument. It was an opinion as you indeed stated therefore there is no argument for me to refute. To me it is absurd to dictate as you did. Of course someone voting Remain can complain about specific things in the future. 

So I'm afraid I will turn down your Strawman Award but I will happily accept the Woodrow W. Wyatt Award for Nonsensical Fun. 

I thought you just ignored the rest of my post to feign shock and indignation at that one line (I wish I had that power).

ToneControl

UnclePsychosis said:

Sporky;1120987" said:

So the comments on his funding are just a go at poisoning the well?

Of course they are. The Leave camp are almost literally incapable of accepting that some people don't agree with them for genuine reasons.

Anyone of any importance or relevance who has come out in favour of the EU gets attacked as "being on the EU gravy train".

They don't seem to appreciate the irony that if massive numbers of scientists, businesses, economists, etc etc etc all do well out of being in the EU then that is in itself a massive indication that being in the EU is a reliable gravy train.

I like this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/28/eu-referendum-brexiters-vote-leave

fixed that for you

I worked on that there Gravy train for several years

She's a beauty

Heartfeltdawn

fretmeister said:

The winner of the award for most disgraceful element of the entire campaign

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/22/vote-leave-flew-a-plane-over-jo-cox-birthday-memorial-service-5960903/?ito=twitter

I raise you the Hopkins mouth today. 

"If Remain win I warn you not to fall ill, I warn you not want to buy a home, I warn you not to expect a primary school place for your child, I warn you not to complain about the next terror attack. So be brave and vote 'Leave' to get Great Britain back"

And this astounding paragraph in which you get to tie Jo Cox, Muslims, and the BCC into one delicious morsal. 

"Eight miles from Jo Cox's constituency 25 men have been sentenced for child prostitution. She saved Syrian children but eight miles away a gang of Muslim men were abusing our own. This only made the regional pages of the BBC news."

fretmeister

ToneControl said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Sporky;1120987" said:

So the comments on his funding are just a go at poisoning the well?

Of course they are. The Leave camp are almost literally incapable of accepting that some people don't agree with them for genuine reasons.

Anyone of any importance or relevance who has come out in favour of the EU gets attacked as "being on the EU gravy train".

They don't seem to appreciate the irony that if massive numbers of scientists, businesses, economists, etc etc etc all do well out of being in the EU then that is in itself a massive indication that being in the EU is a reliable gravy train.

I like this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/28/eu-referendum-brexiters-vote-leave

fixed that for you

I worked on that there Gravy train for several years

She's a beauty

No one who works in science would ever describe the fight for funding as a gravy train.

I would be happy if their funding was increased massively. 

ToneControl

Sporky said: quarky said: As I wrote to Myranda, it is about supply and demand, and in the EU we can't effectively control demand. And actually, Labour started privatisation of the NHS, and they are officially in the remain camp. Where do these assumptions come from?
But non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration.

no, reported migration of EU citizens to the EU is smaller than non-EU

non-EU migration is mostly a matter of formal record

EU migration is estimated from voluntary surveys of small sample groups in transit: every 10th traveller is asked where they are from, their purpose, and how long they are staying. If less than 12 months, they are not counted as a migrant.

in the 12 months ending March 2016, the number of EU citizens applying for a NI number was more than double the govt number for EU migrants for the same period

quarky

fretmeister said:

The winner of the award for most disgraceful element of the entire campaign

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/22/vote-leave-flew-a-plane-over-jo-cox-birthday-memorial-service-5960903/?ito=twitter

OK, to be fair:

A date for the fly past, over Westminster towards Tower Bridge, was made public last Friday before the memorial service had been arranged.

It was originally scheduled to take off at 12pm today but was delayed until 1pm and then 3.30pm because of adverse weather conditions.

It was organised by Britten-Norman Limited, independently of the official Vote Leave campaign.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/22/vote-leave-flew-a-plane-over-jo-cox-birthday-memorial-service-5960903/#ixzz4CLFosAcX

I know both sides have been guilty of cheap shots, but this is nowhere near as bad as you made it sound.

ToneControl

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

Serious question. Besides the MEPs, who have no power, who is actually elected?

"Besides the elected people, [insert weasel words], who is elected?"

Seriously?

The power of the MEPs is similar to that of the house of lords. they can approve or argue against proposals

All the initiation of proposals is from unelected commissioners 

ToneControl

fretmeister said:

ToneControl said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Sporky;1120987" said:

So the comments on his funding are just a go at poisoning the well?

Of course they are. The Leave camp are almost literally incapable of accepting that some people don't agree with them for genuine reasons.

Anyone of any importance or relevance who has come out in favour of the EU gets attacked as "being on the EU gravy train".

They don't seem to appreciate the irony that if massive numbers of scientists, businesses, economists, etc etc etc all do well out of being in the EU then that is in itself a massive indication that being in the EU is a reliable gravy train.

I like this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/28/eu-referendum-brexiters-vote-leave

fixed that for you

I worked on that there Gravy train for several years

She's a beauty

No one who works in science would ever describe the fight for funding as a gravy train.

I would be happy if their funding was increased massively. 

it was a gravy train when I did it

I was paid 20% more than my friends who had jobs outside research

Half the firms involved in the EU projects treated the grants as a free handout, and tried to just pretend to do project work to claim them

ICBM

Bidley said:

How do you propose we do that?

We could start by having a *proper* look at PR. Not a rigged referendum intentionally designed to preserve the status quo by giving the public the choice of a bad existing option or a worse one they didn't ask for or want, and effectively being told they were too stupid to understand the difference.

With the kind of system put in place by the Allies - led by Britain - in Germany after WWII, in Scotland and Wales for their devolved parliaments (I'm not certain how it's done in Northern Ireland), and in many or most of the other advanced democracies.

After that we could look at an elected Lords, probably - or at the same time, a Lords elected by true PR with real powers over Commons legislation would go a long way to address the problems of both FPTP or AV.

But this is probably getting into too much detail for this thread. Just pointing out that our system is hardly a paragon of democracy either...

Heartfeltdawn

quarky said:

I thought you just ignored the rest of my post to feign shock and indignation at that one line (I wish I had that power).

Nah. Feigning shock and indignation is for people who use Tumblr. 

ToneControl

The USA planned the EU, apparently

Mkjackary

@icbm

PR is great and defenately more democratic, but has some key flaws. Biggest one being it would have to be supported by the big parties, and no big party is going to support it.

Two other main flaws for me atleast,
You would need bigger constituencies which would result in less of a relationship with a local mp. So issues that apply to only one constituency (that would just be part of a much larger constituency under PR) won't get brought up in parliament as much.
And secondly we would end up without majorities in government. You could see this as good or bad, but what it would result in (as it did between 2010-2015) is let parties go back on their pledges and promises, and also if you don't have a majority then the party isn't able to get as much done because their coalition blocks a lot of it.

Defenately a debate to be had. Getting a bit off topic though for an eu thread.

Heartfeltdawn

ICBM said:

We could start by having a *proper* look at PR. Not a rigged referendum intentionally designed to preserve the status quo by giving the public the choice of a bad existing option or a worse one they didn't ask for or want, and effectively being told they were too stupid to understand the difference.

As I've said before, Leave have objected vociferously to the EU on the grounds of democracy. If they are truly serious about wanting a better democracy for the UK irrespective of whether we are in or out of Europe, then there should be a concerted campaign in the future for PR. It is completely ridiculous in my view to object to the EU as it is in terms of democracy whilst supporting FPTP. 

Heartfeltdawn

Mkjackary said:

@icbm

PR is great and defenately more democratic, but has some key flaws. Biggest one being it would have to be supported by the big parties, and no big party is going to support it.

Two other main flaws for me atleast,
You would need bigger constituencies which would result in less of a relationship with a local mp. So issues that apply to only one constituency (that would just be part of a much larger constituency under PR) won't get brought up in parliament as much.
And secondly we would end up without majorities in government. You could see this as good or bad, but what it would result in (as it did between 2010-2015) is let parties go back on their pledges and promises, and also if you don't have a majority then the party isn't able to get as much done because their coalition blocks a lot of it.

Defenately a debate to be had. Getting a bit off topic though for an eu thread.

But entirely relevant. We joined the EEC in 1973 and Leave believes that the EU is old-fashioned and outdated. if the EU is outdated after 40 odd years of existence, what does that make FPTP, a method of election that Dickens wrote about in his first novel published in 1836?