So, 4 days on, were Remain scaremongering or not?

octatonic

Paul, what do you understand 'the free movement of people' to be?

exocet

paulmapp8306;1130886" said:

prh777 said:



paulmapp8306 said:



paulmapp8306 said:

Me you mean.

This is true - but it was mostly the working class that voted out so ?????










RaymondLin said:

Here are my 2 cents



1. We need to trade with the EU, even if we leave, we can't not trade, because that would be econmical suicide.

2. In order to trade with the EU, we need to get on board with lots of regulations and also pay a fee. Think of it like a private member's club. You need to abide by the club's rules and pay an entry fee or you can stay outside in the rain.

3. The rule on free movement of workers is a cornerstone of the EU. If you want to trade, you have to sign up with that. It is almost like if you want to come inside, you have to take off your shoes.



For example, Norway is not in the EU but can trade, in return they pay a fee, and actually works out MORE than what we pay per capita. Makes sense as they are not an offical member, so pay more than an official member. They also have to sign up to Free movement of workers. Except Norway can afford this increase because they have a lot more oil reserve than us.



We have a pretty unique and sweet deal before, we even have our own currency so during the 2008/2009 recession we wasn't hit as hard as others. We also had a seat on the table help shape EU laws.



Norway on the other hand do not, they have to abide by any law that EU passes and implement them, no questions asks.



So right now, the best we can hope for is going on the similar deal that Norway has.



1. Sign up to 75% of EU regulation

2. Have free movement of workers

3. Pay more memebers' fee than we did before

4. No influence of EU legislations. Have to implement them anyway



Basically we are pretty much begging to get back to a worse deal than we had last week, with billions knocked out of or stock market and companies value, pensions. Our country's credit rating has taken a massive knock with increase cost of borrowing rising, the political landscape is going to crap, Boris has gone into hiding since and the world thinks we are insane !!! (when everyone else wants to join the EU, we want to leave it). Honestly, what we are trying to do is get back to the position in terms of trade that we were as of last week….and sign up to 75% of the legislation we were on and we don't really have that £350 million (not that we had that much anyway) to spend on anything because not only that has been wiped off due to the stock market and the credit rating drop. We have to pay MORE than before per capita now to trade.



Its like we've shot ourselves in the left foot, and then take an axe to the right kneecap.



But…we can say we have our soverienty back…..woot hoo !!!! I wonder if my bank manager take that as a mortgage payment if I lose my job.







My main problem with that is terminology.



I and many others have no problem with free movement of workers. Free movement of people on the other hand is an issue.



Basically, if you have a job to come to your welcome (as your a worker). If you don't your not (your not a worker but under eu rules you can still come),



Uncontrolled movement is the one thing we can't agree too.



Not sure if you have to have access to the free market to trade do you? Can't you trade without one but have tariff applied, or are those tariff part of access. Surly the us trades with Europe without free movement, as does Japan etc.



Personally, I'm in the mood to fu#k off and never trade wirh Europe again if we can't trade without free movement. not least because they refuse to budge on any meaningful aspect, and Imo why we voted to leave in the first place.















That's right. Don't you trade with those nasty Europeans. That'll teach them.





Just feels that while Cameron says "we wont turnout backs on Europe" that its actually Europe turning their backs on us at the minute. 

If we can trade , with tariffs (ie not in a free market) like most of the world does (as far as I know) then fine - whats the issue with access to the "free market" really?  If however you cant trade at all without accepting the pompus Euros rules - one of which we as a country dont agree with, then what do yo do?  Do we give in ?, do they give in ?  BOTH parties loose if the trade doesnt happen - its not like we gain everything so we should agree.

I think that the issue here is that "trade" takes on many guises. Physical products are one thing - easy enough to sell anywhere, although the UK is spectacularly poor at doing this. They can be covered by existing WTO Tariffs.

The more important trade and the one that the UK is very good at is "services" - the main ones being financial and legal. Without access to the EU market for services, we are f****d. Basically we are saying goodbye to large parts of the City of London along with the huge revenues and profits that it brings. Some may say that that's not a bad thing and that as a country we should develop other facets of trade. Whilst not being a natural fan of the city, I appreciate what it does and can see that "we" are quite good at it.

Our trade in services outside of the EU may eventually grow to replace those about to be lost, however, there will be short to medium term consequences. Without a doubt we will see large financial and legal companies moving significant parts of their organisations to Dublin and Frankfurt. Call it Project Fear if you must, but it's reality.

kjdowd

p90fool;1130876" said:

[quote="Sporky;1130636"]Handsome_Chris said:





No what I am saying is that we all need to work together.





So everyone who wanted to stay in should betray their principles and start actively working to leave, in order to bail out a decision they didn't agree with?



The neat hook here is that any remainer who points this out can be accused of betraying their country and other nationalist rhetoric. >:D<

Exactly. I hate all this "what's done is done and now we all need to work together" bullshit.

I'm not working together with any racist morons who've fucked us all over in the name of "sovereignty" and have now realised they've been duped, despite all our warnings in advance of the referendum.

There's even a very subdued tone among the more articulate, non-racist Leavers on this forum this week compared to last.
You fucked up and you know it, thanks a fucking bunch guys. [/quote]

Yep. This.

Fatfingers

Me too. I'm livid with people who voted leave - but not as livid as I am with those who didn't bother to vote at all. I've just discovered my brother-in-law is one of them. I won't be seeing him for a long while.

Fatfingers

Met another bloke at the gym last night who I normally enjoy football banter with. He asked me how my week was going. When I said diabolical, and pointed out that watching my country disintegrate wasn't fun, he said, 

'Yeah - I only voted leave as a protest vote. I didn't think all this would happen.'

A protest against what? Freedom? Prosperity? Peace?

Wanker.

RaymondLin

Honestly I had a conversation with someone last week who I told him that I have a friend who has 2 PHDs in economics tells me a Brexit is bad for our economy and he said "but it's only a guess" I said "yes but it is an educated one". He said "well I am educated too!"

I asked "what?"

He said "physics"

Seriously, wtf...

hywelg

I'm getting a bit pissed off with Remainers telling me ;-

1. I'm now feeling duped and would like to change my vote
2. I'm a racist moron.
3. The warnings (project fear) are all coming true, we told you so.
4. We're going to have to accept free movement to be part of the single market.

Nice try, keep at it and maybe you'll get another go or two until we vote the right way!

So here's a few pointers

Even racist morons, along with nutters, prisoners, expats, the terminally thick all get a vote, that's democracy. You don't get to veto a person's vote because they don't agree with you no matter how nasty or stupid they are.

I do not feel duped. I knew there would be short term instability, the quid pro quo being long term benefits.

The warnings were bollocks. Again, short term instability in exchange for a long term benefit. And in case you can't work it out, a fall in the pound will give our exporters a big benefit, now.

Accepting we have to be part of the single market is not a given. If it comes with strings attached then we say no thanks. And if they try to limit trade with the EU we have the power to do the same in reverse.

Drew_TNBD

ADMIN EDIT: Unnecessary. Deleted.

RaymondLin

How are you do certain that there are long term benefits? Show me an example of the world where they have a similar size population with a better economy that doesn't trade with their nearest neighbour.

A weak pound means bugger all if we don't trade!

You are living in a bubble if you think we can go it alone.

Sporky

paulmapp8306 said:

I cant agree with this part of your comment though.

""A narrow majority of those who voted, and hence a minority overall, want to leave""

As we dont know the views of that % who didnt vote - you cant say either way if those wanting to leave are a minority or majhority.  Its possible (not likely of course) that ALL those who didnt vote wanted to leave making the majority larger.

  

Yes - that's fair, I didn't word that right. There should have been a "definitely" before "want to leave", I didn't mean to suggest that everyone who didn't vote didn't want to leave. In my defence that's my being inarticulate rather than trying to be deceptive.

hywelg

RaymondLin;1131017" said:

How are you do certain that there are long term benefits?9 Show me an example of the world where they have a similar size population with a better economy that doesn't trade with their nearest neighbour.

A weak pound means bugger all if we don't trade!

You are living in a bubble if you think we can go it along.

Try the edit button, some of the autotyping selections make no sense.

paulmapp8306

kjdowd said:

p90fool;1130876" said:

[quote="Sporky;1130636"]Handsome_Chris said:





No what I am saying is that we all need to work together.





So everyone who wanted to stay in should betray their principles and start actively working to leave, in order to bail out a decision they didn't agree with?



The neat hook here is that any remainer who points this out can be accused of betraying their country and other nationalist rhetoric. >:D<

Exactly. I hate all this "what's done is done and now we all need to work together" bullshit.

I'm not working together with any racist morons who've fucked us all over in the name of "sovereignty" and have now realised they've been duped, despite all our warnings in advance of the referendum.

There's even a very subdued tone among the more articulate, non-racist Leavers on this forum this week compared to last.
You fucked up and you know it, thanks a fucking bunch guys. [/quote]

Yep. This.

Toys, Pram.....

Sporky

hywelg said:

I'm getting a bit pissed off with Remainers telling me ;-

1. I'm now feeling duped and would like to change my vote
2. I'm a racist moron.
3. The warnings (project fear) are all coming true, we told you so.
4. We're going to have to accept free movement to be part of the single market. 

If it helps, I'm getting fed up with leavers suggesting that all remainers are calling leavers stupid and racist. It's as much of a generalisation and exaggeration either way.

paulmapp8306

hywelg said:

I'm getting a bit pissed off with Remainers telling me ;-

1. I'm now feeling duped and would like to change my vote
2. I'm a racist moron.
3. The warnings (project fear) are all coming true, we told you so.
4. We're going to have to accept free movement to be part of the single market.

Nice try, keep at it and maybe you'll get another go or two until we vote the right way!

So here's a few pointers

Even racist morons, along with nutters, prisoners, expats, the terminally thick all get a vote, that's democracy. You don't get to veto a person's vote because they don't agree with you no matter how nasty or stupid they are.

I do not feel duped. I knew there would be short term instability, the quid pro quo being long term benefits.

The warnings were bollocks. Again, short term instability in exchange for a long term benefit. And in case you can't work it out, a fall in the pound will give our exporters a big benefit, now.

Accepting we have to be part of the single market is not a given. If it comes with strings attached then we say no thanks. And if they try to limit trade with the EU we have the power to do the same in reverse.

+ about a million.

paulmapp8306

RaymondLin said:

How are you do certain that there are long term benefits? Show me an example of the world where they have a similar size population with a better economy that doesn't trade with their nearest neighbour.

A weak pound means bugger all if we don't trade!

You are living in a bubble if you think we can go it along.

This is the bollocks Ive heard before.  Europe is not the be all and end all.  More trade happens outside Europe than in it - and the world is shrinking.   Of course its beneficial to trade with neighbours but not at the costs it is currently costing.  When we entered the EEC, there was no political Union, and no free movement.  Those have been forced on us since.

Im also absolutely pissed off with those young people saying we have Fucked up their future.  Sorry guys, if more than 38% of you 18-25 year olds and been bothered to give a fuck in the first place, you may have had a better outcome.

Sorry for the language, but Im getting rather miffed at the stance of many "leave " supporters attitudes now they have lost.  The consequences of the vote are what they are - for good or ill, get one with it.  I highly doubt if wed chosen to stay, the "out"ers would have reacted this badly.

ICBM

I accept that we can never know for sure, but I feel that for something which involves a choice between major change and the status quo, those who want the change need to prove that it's supported by a majority, not the other way round. This has very much not been demonstrated here - all we know is that a large minority voted for change, slightly larger than the large minority who actively voted against it, but not that much larger than the minority who didn't think it mattered - and far smaller than the total number who didn't *want* change (emphasis on want, not didn't).

I also accept that not setting the bar correctly was Cameron's fault - but not making it explicit that the result was not binding was both his *and* the Leave campaign's fault. So I don't think it's undemocratic to question the legitimacy of the result.

paulmapp8306

octatonic said:

Paul, what do you understand 'the free movement of people' to be?

AS far as Im aware - and I may be wrong - its the principle that an EU citizen can freely travel, live, work anywhere in Europe.  

I have no problem with the freedom to work, or even travel.  I have got a problem with the live if one of the other two arnt met.

It was summed up by this week somewhere.  There is a big difference between free movement of workers and free movement of people.  

Given the situation with space, housing and services in this country - Id say any deal (in or out of the EU) where any EU citizen is free to come and live and work in this country is fine - provided they have the job to come to.  If they dont have a job to come to, but are coming to Look for work - then they shouldnt have that right - though they should be free to apply to come and look.  If they have the skills we need certain jobs we are ion need of filling - let them come.  If not then no.

UnclePsychosis

paulmapp8306 said:

RaymondLin said:

How are you do certain that there are long term benefits? Show me an example of the world where they have a similar size population with a better economy that doesn't trade with their nearest neighbour.

A weak pound means bugger all if we don't trade!

You are living in a bubble if you think we can go it along.

  I highly doubt if wed chosen to stay, the "out"ers would have reacted this badly.

You're funny. I like you.

RaymondLin

Look, no one is calling anyone here a racist moron, unless however you act like one. The term I've used thus far are the leavers were ill informed, they basically had no idea about both what they are opting out of, what the EU is and what they stand to lose.

The long term stability thing, well, define long term stability, if long term stability mean a long term stability of recession after recession…sure, that counts, we will be stable in a recession, instead of ups and downs. If you are predicting somehow we can go it alone with no trade, worse deals than we were before and capture the "good old days" then you are absolutely crazy insane. First of all, what are these good old days, I've heard people use "make our country great again", took the words right out of Trump and I am thinking…WTF, because the last time this country were great was back when we own India, the USA and Australia…..reality check, that is never going to happen. We are not going to invade anyone and trading with countries that far away doesn't make that much sense when there is a MASSIVE economy bloc off the English Channel, whom we had a say how it's law are drafted.

If you are talking about something a bit closer, between WW2 and 76 then the world back then is way different to it is now, back then we didn't have the internet, fax machines had barely been invented, China were pretty much still a 3rd world country, the world moves a lot faster now and both the political and economical landscape are different.

The good old days do not exist, not like you think it does, the way forward is to form partnerships, and make each other stronger by working together. With Russia increasingly wanting to exerts its presence, with China's seemingly unstoppable growth, we stand/stood well placed within the EU to have an influence both in terms of our own and as a bloc, and if it goes wrong, we have more chance of surviving…like Greece would have been bankrupt if not for the Germans saving their arse. We also had a sweet deal that our currency saves us from the major downfall too as of 2008. So basically we had a safety net in the EU, and also could stand on our own with our pound. Now we just cut off the net, for what?

The export aspect…we don't export any cars because we drive on the other side of the road, the Europeans are not buying our wine (Italian/Spanish/French) or cheese (French) or sausages (Germans) but we buy all those from them…great thing having the weak pound when our biggest asset is our financial services. London is well placed being the hub because of its time zone to the rest of the world, trades are done in English and through that the banks can cut across a lot of the red tape from trading across all the EU countries. You are going to say….a Leave vote doesn't change the time zone or the language, except banks cares more about money, they are going to lose money trading in London when they could trade in Paris and without that cross market red tape. Money talks.

Honestly, I can't believe people gamble on their son's and grandson's future on nothing more than blind faith.

octatonic

paulmapp8306 said:

RaymondLin said:

How are you do certain that there are long term benefits? Show me an example of the world where they have a similar size population with a better economy that doesn't trade with their nearest neighbour.

A weak pound means bugger all if we don't trade!

You are living in a bubble if you think we can go it along.

This is the bollocks Ive heard before.  Europe is not the be all and end all.  More trade happens outside Europe than in it - and the world is shrinking.   Of course its beneficial to trade with neighbours but not at the costs it is currently costing.  When we entered the EEC, there was no political Union, and no free movement.  Those have been forced on us since.

Im also absolutely pissed off with those young people saying we have Fucked up their future.  Sorry guys, if more than 38% of you 18-25 year olds and been bothered to give a fuck in the first place, you may have had a better outcome.

Sorry for the language, but Im getting rather miffed at the stance of many "leave " supporters attitudes now they have lost.  The consequences of the vote are what they are - for good or ill, get one with it.  I highly doubt if wed chosen to stay, the "out"ers would have reacted this badly.

If you are going to talk like that then I guess the gloves come off.

You voted out without understanding how the EU functions.

Educating yourself after the vote is assbackwards and pretty dumb, frankly.

I'm not sure you have much credibility to be saying such things, Paul.

You can say them of course, but people will laugh when you do.

I'll 'get on with it' when we actually withdraw.

What I 'get on with' will depend on how we withdraw, if indeed we do.

Until then it is all to play for.

This referendum is not legally binding, so let's see what ends up happening.

And yes, Farage has admitted that if the vote went 52:48 to remain that it wouldn't have been the end of it and he would have likely campaigned to withdraw after a referendum to remain.