Cab isolation, ClearSonic or alternatives

FreddieVanHalen

I've got a small spare bedroom that is currently used as storage and I'm thinking of getting rid of most of the crap that's in there an turning it into a "tracking room". The wife may think of it as a "dressing room" but that's another story lol

It would be great to record guitar cabs in there, usually powered by small wattage heads but as we're in a flat there are neighbouring properties upstairs and on one of the walls. Clearly this rules out just chucking a cab straight in there and going for it even with a 5w head.

I notice on some of Pete Thorn's youtube videos that he uses a system called ClearSonic with reasonable results, here from about 11 mins in, and a ClearSonic demo video after that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt70cvyb7IU

Does anyone have experience with ClearSonic stuff? Anyone used a UK alternative or equivalent? Does anyone have experience of a similar  project like this, like creating a tracking or isolation room at home? The room is about 7 feet by 8 feet...

Budget would be about a grand absolute top end and I'd rather not do anything too destructive to the room. It would also be nice to salvage some value from the project if I moved although that's not on the cards at the moment....

I'm still expecting to have to use some attenuation with the amps and I'm not expecting to be able to use this space at like 3am - I'm thinking of getting a space where I could sing or have loud home practice levels of guitar (whatever that means?) without totally pissing off the neighbours. I'm not thinking of putting a 100w stack and drum kit in there :-)

Any thoughts or references to resources would be very much appreciated as I have zero experience in this subject. Cheers!!

EDIT: initial thinking is to use some kind of amp isolation box like the ClearSonic in combination with some level of soundproofing in the room to further reduce pollution to neighbours. Aim is more for recording than practice...

Danny1969

I used to record amps at deafening volume by putting them in a large dog cage covered in 3 layers of carpet, worked very well and cost nothing cos the dog cage and carpet off-cuts came from Freecycle 

Soundproofing the room would be a lot trickier as the only thing that stops sound is mass, sound will escape through window, through door, through ceiling then roof,  through floorboards etc. I've had great results from external garage with air locked doors and quad glazing but an upstairs room would be a nightmare

ToneControl

I have a better solution

I had a double skinned large oak box made, with 3 speakers and 3 mics within it

Outside it, you could only hear the transformers rattle and the guitar strings, even with a 100w amp maxed out

Now I never use it, if you are interested, PM me, because I would sell it.

see: http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1969.0

FreddieVanHalen

@Danny1969 - that's not something I'd though of but would certainly be cheaper than proper soundproofing! I'd briefly considered getting a specialist firm to come and build an iso booth into the room but that's starting to get rather more expensive and serious than I'm up for...I'm happy to lose the window on that room if needed though, but yeah ceiling and adjoining wall will probably present difficulties.

@ToneControl - I've tried the pure iso-cab approach already but I will have a think about your box. The challenge I had with the box I had built was that it tended to sound *extremely* boxy, although it was a bit smaller than your much more serious effort!

I had been hoping to come up with a solution where I could record the cabs I already own rather than "drivers in a box" but I haven't completely ruled out going back down your route....given the challenges of soundproofing a room in an flat that might be the only viable option to get the level of sound proofing I need without spending huge amounts....

I guess it will always be compromise to some extent as most would say that even an 8x8 room sounds boxy lol

hywelg

The clearsonic panels will only help to isolate the amp, in the room it will still be very loud. An iso box would be a better bet for a small bedroom.

I made a pespex screen using the Clearsonic hinge, but for a different reason, to tame the beam in front of my cab and for that it works well, better than the Jay Mitchell Donuts, but I suspect thats not what you want it for. Even a  cranked 1 watt amp is going to be too loud in a flat!

digitalscream

I had pretty decent results by using a small 1x12" (Jet City JCA12XS), in a space about 3 times its size created by stacking cardboard boxes (full of...stuff) around it. It's also worth using the foam corner inserts from the boxes you get amps in to isolate the cab from the floor.

Alternatively...get thee one of these:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/jet_city_amplification_jetstream_iso12.htm

cosmiccarrot

There's a pete thorn demo somewhere where he shows you his iso cab in his wardrobe or something at home before he built his studio? I think he demo'd the suhr 68 using that iso cab?

I've been meaning to do something similar myself and I've found as a general rule density and air space are good sound proofing, so a box within a box leaving an air pocket between but I think the bigger the box would help with sound pressure levels and the problems they can cause on the mike.
One cock up I did do as a kid when doing the 'pile carpets over the cab' set up was forget that the amps output was greater than the cabs speakers and because it was quiet I kept on cranking the volume each time until... silence and two blown speakers, doh.

bob21

I have much experience with the Clearsonic stuff in a slightly different context - drum kits..

Basically.. You're not going to achieve what you want with the perspex panels alone - these actually act as reflectors and make the problem worse - put a screen round the front, it reflects on to the back wall; screen all round, the sound goes up. They also make the mic'd sound worse because of the second reflection into it..

However, the solution here is absorption, which you see in the PT video and later in the Clearsonics one. The sorber panels are like a carpet covered panel that has material inside, and they actually absorb pretty well. If you could surround and lid the amp with sorber, i'd expect to be dropping probably 10db, maybe more, off the cab volume.

It wouldn't be true to say that they don't change the sound - the soft surfaces definitely cut the top end, but not drastically. Also, creating a box will, unsurprisingly, make the recorded sound a touch boxy - purely by reducing the 'room' size. How much this affects you vastly depends on your mic choice and technique.. A hypercardioid close mic won't be much different, a cardioid condenser at 18" will be much more so!

The other really important thing is going to be structurally isolating the amp - Auralex make a good product that you could experiment with for this, called the Gramma Pad, that is designed to isolate the amp platform from the floor. It's not hugely expensive.

Obviously, all this is dependant on the amp you use, and what external volume level you deem reasonable, but it's probably one of your best bets for a temporary, moveable structure. It's also not going to cost an absolute fortune (though it's not what most would consider cheap).

With respect to the room itself, I can't see that clearsonics is going to help you here, as Danny says you need real mass and structural isolation here!

FreddieVanHalen

Thanks for the feedback and ideas folks.

@cosmiccarrot thanks for pointing that one out, I've now looked up that video - Pete seems to be getting some reasonable resulting going that way

@bob21 and @hywelg - yep I was thinking of using the amppac version of the ClearSonic stuff to enclose the cab  in the panels with Sorber material attached to it and which has a panel to use as a lid. That's a good point on the Auralex Gramma Pad too, as I notice Pete Thorn seems to have used a couple of bags of sand his video to lift the cab off the floor :-)

Looking at the Gramma Pad actually ended up with me finding a product called VocalBooth Amp Enclosure - that also looks good for the job but is about double the price of the ClearSonic solution...

On the room, yeah I guess you're right. I don't have the budget to make it as good as it needs to be.

Before I blow dosh on this I think I might try the freecycle, dog cage and carpet route to see what kind of results I get and whether it's really worth it...

ToneControl

I tried allsorts, not happy with attenuators, commercial isocabs were boxy and sometimes leaky and noisy the one I had built has close mic'ing, and works well. A few screens will not help you, and if you did want a Gramma pad, it's cheaper to buy 1 or 2 long block shaped strips of the same material (used for drum risers), but all this does is stop some bass getting into a boomy wooden floor, and does more to improve the sound you hear than protecting neighbours. I sometimes use them between stacked amps/cabs too Your only options for pro sound recording are, in order of cost: DAW-based amp sim, not fully pro quality, but some use for recording Attenuator and DI, then use cabinet IRs Isocab Kemper/AxeFx2 Esmono room

Maxi

I dont think you really need to spend lots of money on Isolation , its not going to sound as open what ever method is used but once youve enclosed / shielded the speaker lots of deadening material like rockwool or similar to prevent reflections (sound cancellations) . Ive got a space under the stairs that I have sound proofed with loft insulation and chip board never had any complaints from the guys next door . The door is clad with about 35mm thick of solid particle board bolted into place . The other option is to simply reduce the volume (attenuate) and mic the cab in a separate room . I like the sound you get from a tiled kitchen but never liked the sound of a confined space , to me that sounds worse than speaker emulation .

I think the one single thing thats made it easier is tracking the performance and then reamping it at the most suitable time .

impmann

Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay - I bought an isolation cab (home-made but really well built), fitted with a 10in speaker and a gooseneck for mic positioning for £5... I've cranked a 30w valve amp into it and the sound leakage is less than the volume of someone talking quietly... very impressive and the recorded sound was great too. 

FreddieVanHalen

ToneControl said:

 Your only options for pro sound recording are, in order of cost: DAW-based amp sim, not fully pro quality, but some use for recording Attenuator and DI, then use cabinet IRs Isocab Kemper/AxeFx2 Esmono room

Appreciate your input on this one, it sounds like you've spent quite a bit of time exploring this!

I'd never heard of Esmono room but that solution does look like the dream for a home studio. Looks like £5k for the 2M cube version which is more than I'd wanted to spend but it would do the job :-)

Noting your comments on emulation approaches, perhaps a more cost effective and common sense approach would be to get a useable tone using attenuation/emulation and then use my money to rent some studio time and reamp in a proper studio...

digitalscream

You could take the effects send from your amp direct into your DAW, then use cab impulses? It's not going to be perfect, but it can get you some very good tones.

Don't forget that you still need to plug your amp into the speaker, but because you're not putting anything into the effects return you've effectively got silent recording.

For my part, I use a couple of AMT preamp pedals direct into impulses. Sounds surprisingly good, actually.

ThePrettyDamned

impmann;127345" said:

Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay - I bought an isolation cab (home-made but really well built), fitted with a 10in speaker and a gooseneck for mic positioning for £5... I've cranked a 30w valve amp into it and the sound leakage is less than the volume of someone talking quietly... very impressive and the recorded sound was great too. 

What?! Oh man, I'm adding that to me search list...