recent Gardiner & Houlgate Auction

guitars4you

anybody buy anything from last weeks auction - just had a quick look at the hammer prices on a few models and most of the vintage pieces sold and some at very realistic prices, taking into account additional 24% to cover commission + vat on commission - although most old Fenders had 'some issues' in some form of another based on non original features, but some prices looked 'realsitic', at least on paper

Some very good buys on a few select models inc a Hank style 56 Strat for only £1000 - equates to £1240 - 1st Series EC Strat for £780 (equates to £967)

Noticed this Original Dallas Rangemaster Treble Booster guitar unit, serial no.158557, including the original warranty registration card - went for £1300 - which equates to £1612

Parker

I had a few low ball bids in. I knew there was a stong chance that I wouldn't win anything, but was worth a stab. I have bought off them before though. It's getting quite well known now though, so prices are on the rise. 

IvisonGuitars

Funnily enough, I was heading down to it and I got as far as Cheltenham and thought "what am I doing?? I don't need anything" so I turned around and came home. I watched some of it online though, I was partially interested in the vintage Strats and the blonde Tele but without the option of taking them all apart to check them out, it would be a BIG risk to any buyer.

I personally didn't think there were any 'bargains' to be had, most of the stuff sold at around market value.

guitars4you

miserneil said:

Funnily enough, I was heading down to it and I got as far as Cheltenham and thought "what am I doing?? I don't need anything" so I turned around and came home. I watched some of it online though, I was partially interested in the vintage Strats and the blonde Tele but without the option of taking them all apart to check them out, it would be a BIG risk to any buyer.

I personally didn't think there were any 'bargains' to be had, most of the stuff sold at around market value.

That made me smile - it is almost like in that moment you have grown up and seen the light !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - my thoughts on the old stuff are similar to yours regarding the evaluation - slightly worrying though that if you could buy 2 or 3 you might make  a good one and fool someone, then sell the others as parts or a 'poor man's version'

Bygone_Tones

There are rarely bargains at auctions like that. Such a big magnet for dealers. If something goes cheap its probably got something wrong with it that the 'in the room' bidders know all about (the sensible people), but the lazy people bidding online cant see from the photos. Been there, done that, back in the days when I used to go to auctions. Always go in person.

If you want to find bargains at auctions, the 1st trick is not to go to a specialist one like that. A guitar auction is not the place to go to find a cheap guitar. A few months ago I saw a JCM800 go very cheap on invaluable.com. It was in a general sale and was the only guitar amp there. Its about finding the stuff that no-one else there is going to be interested in.

IvisonGuitars

guitars4you said:

miserneil said:

Funnily enough, I was heading down to it and I got as far as Cheltenham and thought "what am I doing?? I don't need anything" so I turned around and came home. I watched some of it online though, I was partially interested in the vintage Strats and the blonde Tele but without the option of taking them all apart to check them out, it would be a BIG risk to any buyer.

I personally didn't think there were any 'bargains' to be had, most of the stuff sold at around market value.

That made me smile - it is almost like in that moment you have grown up and seen the light !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - my thoughts on the old stuff are similar to yours regarding the evaluation - slightly worrying though that if you could buy 2 or 3 you might make  a good one and fool someone, then sell the others as parts or a 'poor man's version'

Quite. I was more thinking that I might like a Strat (although I'm not a Strat person AT ALL) as part of the sonic palette so to speak but, as @Bygone_Tones rightly says, that wasn't the place to go for bargains, especially with their increased advertising and presence at the guitar shows this year. Great for sellers though.

Will be interesting to see which guitars turn up with which dealers in the coming months, I've got a pound on who the first one will be ;-)

richardhomer

That treble booster was very expensive indeed, wasn't it?

I'll happy provide a Boss GE7 with the treble sliders pushed up for half that figure....

guitars4you

richardhomer said:

That treble booster was very expensive indeed, wasn't it?

I'll happy provide a Boss GE7 with the treble sliders pushed up for half that figure....

I dare say @ThorpyFX  can give us a better idea on the cost of the parts but I bet even back then it is was less than a pint and not much more than that today - mind it did have the manual with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sassafras

I've seen Klons go for more than the Treble Booster.

usedtobe

Forgot all about it...

ThorpyFX

guitars4you said:

richardhomer said:

That treble booster was very expensive indeed, wasn't it?

I'll happy provide a Boss GE7 with the treble sliders pushed up for half that figure....

I dare say @ThorpyFX  can give us a better idea on the cost of the parts but I bet even back then it is was less than a pint and not much more than that today - mind it did have the manual with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can build them for not a lot of cash it's true even with a NOS OC44 yellow jacket, but....... it's the Clapton link, the rarity and the originality that leads to that price. I dare say that that is actually low for that booster. Privately it'll go for £2k upwards 

mellowsun

A few years ago Gardiner Houlgate used to do viewings in London prior to the auction in Bath. They hired out a room in a top hotel - it was great.

you could try out the guitars - got to play a 62 strat and a late 50s LP (not fully original). I still have the catalogue.

markslade07

I poked my head in for a couple of hours at the start. Didn't register to bid, just fancied having a look at some guitars, as its 10 mins down the road.

As others have said, there weren't any particular bargains I saw, but I don't really know the market value of the vintage stuff. Fairly sure some of the more 'run of the mill' stuff could be had for a similar, if not better, price on here

Nice way to spend a couple of hours though, and watch the dealers in action

Strat54

I wanted the old PRS as a beater, it went for £950 which is probably plus fees the cheapest any '86 has gone for in recent years. It actually went for under the estimate. I tried to buy it well before the auction but it was part of a deceased estate so they couldn't let it go even though I offered a bit more than the the final price! Oh well, always another. 

http://guitar-auctions.co.uk/portfolio-post/lot-65-1986-paul-reed-smith-prs-electric-guitar-made-in-usa/

Yeah, the vintage pieces...always a bit of a mystery when it comes to the guitar trade and vintage prices....seems like most you see for sale (certainly the high end) are actually on consignment and that the dealers just like to have these prestigious pieces in their shops and ads with little thought or care as to whether or not they will sell. Its what actually puts me off buying one again. If I could spend £15-20k on a nice pretty original old Tele and know that I could sell it on sometime later if need be without a huge loss or having to deal with the UK vintage dealers (yes you know THE ones) then I would take the plunge and head out to this coming Dallas Guitar Show, I've been before. Would just love to have owned an old blackguard....just for a while. I wouldn't mind losing 25% but I can imagine me buying one for £20k and selling it for £10k with the dealer having taken out £8k for the brokerage/fees! Its fair to say that the vintage dealers are a different bunch to those like Mark, don't know what it is...but they are.
I like the ones that list $40k '53 Tele's and put its all original when you can see that the switch tip is a bloody top hat one...come on, do what the others do and spend $20 on a NOS bakelite round one! Yeah amazing how so many of the 5000 made still have that original switch tip, the one thats dished out at the end! Lol

guitars4you

@Strat54 ;;
I'd love to do one of the major USA vintage shows - if for no other reason than to browse and take it in - I've only done the Orange County Show in LA around the same time as NAMM - but at such a low exchange rate will be hard to justify buying anything

Slightly going of thread, yet connected - you are right about high end vintage prices regarding the best examples and commission sales - And if you think about it, how many dealers have that level of budget to actually buy 100K  Les Paul's, along with the required funds to buy enough 25K-40K Strats and Teles from the 50's to make the showroom look decent - It is a double edged issue in many ways - The customer requires 25K for his 50's Strat - The dealer then has to add his 20% fee + vat on top - that equates to  24% - So all of a sudden that 25K Strat is now £31000 - If it sells then great for all parties, if it doesn't sell, then it is down to the owner of the Strat to decide if he toughs it out and waits for a sale, or reduce his price accordingly - If it doesn't sell the dealer has no funds tied up in such stock, so no financial risks involved - So yes to a degree such commission sales help to glorify the dealers wall and prices are influenced by 'lets suck it and see'

IvisonGuitars

@Strat54 @guitars4you

2 great posts chaps. So, given that people are now much more informed about the value of their guitars and can research vintage guitars before a potential purchase to the enth degree, and given the rise of Reverb, eBay or the Vintage & Rare for sale site, do you think we will see the decline of vintage guitar dealers to a point where they are redundant in the future?

guitars4you

miserneil said:

@Strat54 @guitars4you

2 great posts chaps. So, given that people are now much more informed about the value of their guitars and can research vintage guitars before a potential purchase to the enth degree, and given the rise of Reverb, eBay or the Vintage & Rare for sale site, do you think we will see the decline of vintage guitar dealers to a point where they are redundant in the future?

From a consumers point of view as the seller, then if they want to dangle a carrot and see what happens then the likes of Reverb are ideal - test the market with a highish price and see what happens - I'm sure many are doing that already, so unless you need the funds quickly, for whatever reason, you can list it with almost no fees incurred - If it sells the great, if not you can adjust your game plan accordingly  - On that basis you probably don't need a dealer - However the reverse then applies as a buyer - Do you trust yourself, and the seller, that everything is as it should be, with no back up, support etc - Probably no trade in option 

I think we've already seen a decline, for whatever reason, of stores who have 10/20/30/40 or more, genuine vintage guitars in stock in the UK - I'm not saying none, but rarely do you see a choice of 4 or 5 60's Strats now on one wall in the UK - Yet on Reverb I can find 10-20 on view, albeit in various worldwide locations - I dare say some of those on Reverb are dealers some private sellers, but it is a big shop window, maybe the biggest

I think the days have just about already gone were you see a selection of 'vintage guitars' in the average high street UK store, be it a small dealer or the likes of GuitarGuitar/Andertons/Peach etc - With only a few 'specialists' outlets left, be they a store or a 'bedroom' retailer

As a retailer I'm glad I don't rely purely on 'vintage guitars' to earn a living - I'm certainly not a specialists in that market place, but I do get a few tasty pieces throughout the year - But I bat within a comfort zone, both on price and knowledge

Strat54

Not been for a while, but done Dallas and Arlington. I think they have become a little more corporate now with Gibson and PRS in attendance. Back then they were mostly dealers  both those with shops and those without and collectors....yep, always a couple of empty booths set up for the purpose of the young Japanese buyers to stash their hoards...and I mean HOARDS! I'm sure though they are still worth the trip, saw some amazing stuff and everyone was happy to let you play the heavyweight stuff. Had the pleasure of  standing next to Eric Johnson whilst he tried a '54 Strat through a Bassman. Shame the £/$ rate is still so poor....give me back 1.85 please...I made some great purchases that were mailed back to myself  

Strat54

Isn't Reverb owned by Chicago Music Exchanges wealthy proprietor....yeah David Kalt. Not sure I'd like to hand over £20k to a private seller on there though.....but then again, I'd love this....

https://reverb.com/item/2796686-fender-telecaster-1952

Strat54

The vintage prices for this year have almost levelled out again with only a slight drop according to the 2017 VG Price Guide.
They are still far from those pre 2008 prices, which were pretty ridiculous. Not sure of the future though for vintage guitars, how many of today's young players will want to pay £20k for an old Tele? I would guess for the next 20 or so years they will be okay but beyond that maybe the 80's/90's guitars will be in demand. I always wonder morbidly what the effect of makers like Paul Reed Smith and John Suhr  passing will have on the value of their guitars? Nothing lasts forever. ;(

guitars4you

Strat54 said:

The vintage prices for this year have almost levelled out again with only a slight drop according to the 2017 VG Price Guide.
They are still far from those pre 2008 prices, which were pretty ridiculous. Not sure of the future though for vintage guitars, how many of today's young players will want to pay £20k for an old Tele? I would guess for the next 20 or so years they will be okay but beyond that maybe the 80's/90's guitars will be in demand. I always wonder morbidly what the effect of makers like Paul Reed Smith and John Suhr  passing will have on the value of their guitars? Nothing lasts forever. ;(

Interesting in that when I'm at UK shows, or indeed in contact with potential sellers of 'old guitars', the bulk of such conversations are with players/collectors that are over 50, 60 or 70 - Many younger players today, brought up on more 'modern based guitars' do not appear to have the same interest in old guitars that we use to have (or do still have) - So who is going to buy all these vintage guitars, in 10/20/30 years, that we are offered today  - We can all have an input and opinion on this , but considering we are already a small cottage industry, I'm not sure if we know the answer

Yes there are still buyers today under 40 or 50 who require vintage guitars, but as an overview, they are in the minority

As for modern builders like PRS, Suhr and Anderson - I dare say there are exceptions within their product range, but in many ways, such guitars are seen as 'functional tools of the trade' - You can say old Strats used to be, but at 10-30K that is less so, certainly compared to a new 2K/3K PRS or C/Shop - As such I think the value of most nice modern guitars will adjust for inflation based on new prices, but not much more - To me an example of this are PRS 513's and Modern Eagle's with Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard and neck - Amongst the finest PRS Guitars ever, yet prices have barely risen in the last 5 years and can still be purchased used for less than the original new price in 2004