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The way the 7th was explained to me was, it's either a major 7 (IE from the major scale), or a dominant 7 (IE from the minor scale).
I understand the difference, but cannot understand that just because it comes from the minor scale that it's dominant.
Surely it would be either a major 7 or a minor 7.
But maybe I just didn't understand the explanation properly.
I do understand exactly what Clarky and Viz have said about the 7th and how it fits in, so maybe the original explanation was a bit crap.
Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21)
OK @Mike_L, what you have is this:
Each mode, and therefore triad chord, of the diatonic scale is either major, minor or diminished. But when you add the 7th note, the chords become either major, minor, diminished OR DOMINANT, as follows (all based on the key of C):
1st mode (ionian): Cmaj7 (C, E, G, - MAJOR 7th. (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)
2nd mode (dorian): Dmin7 (D, F, A, C) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
3rd mode (phrygian): Emin7 (E, G, B, D) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
4th mode (lydian): Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E) - MAJOR 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)
5th mode (mixolydian): G7 (G, B, D, F) - DOMINANT 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 3)
6th mode (aeolian): Amin7 (A, C, E, G) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
7th mode (locrian): Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab) - DIMINISHED 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 3, 3 - ok this breaks away from the diatonic - the chord BDFA is called the half-diminished 7th, or minor 7 flat 5 and is very unstable.)
So you see, there is that Dominant 7th. It's the only one with a major triad and a minor 7th, and hey presto, it's in the Mixolydian scale, ergo it's in the V position, which is called the dominant chord (regardless of whether you play the 7th or not). Each note in the major scale, and thus the chord that stems from each, has a name - as well as being called I, II, III, V etc, they are also called Tonic, Supertonic, mediant, Subdominant, DOMINANT, sub mediant, leading note, and then back to Tonic. So the Dominant is always the V chord, and if you add a natural 7th to it, you get a dominant 7th chord, and it always leads to the chord a 4th above (or a 5th below) - the tonic.
So whoever told you that was wrong. The Dominant 7 chord is based on the major triad (mixolydian, the V chord), and it has a Natural (or minor) 7th. Its fret intervals are 4, 3, 3, the only one in the set that has that.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21)
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I thought for those who understand the degrees of the major scale it might be helpful to have all the information in one place - the chord notes, the name of the scale on which they're based, the name of each scale's root note, and the intervals - sorry if I misled anyone!
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I know my music theory but I've skim-read the last load of posts.. TMI IMO, I know clarky has more on tap but I think on the internet noone can see their student go cross-eyed.
just a little FYI sort of thing....
I see guys that are new to the academic side of music majorly get their lil' nix in a twist regarding modes.. so when I teach all this to my students, here's how I go about it...
get them to learn the chromatic scale first [cos it's essentially learning the alphabet]
then the major scale
derive the triads and 7th chords from the major / chord spelling
the minor scale and point out the beautiful coincidence that the relative minor shares the same pool of notes as it's 'parent' major scale.. being very concious to ensure they understand that Am and C are totally different keys / scales...
when they 100% convince me that they understand the relationship between major and relative minor [especially that these are totally difference scales that just happen to share the same note pool], then getting them to understand modes is just more of the same and actually it then becomes quite simple..
I think the biggest confusion is folk trying to think in terms of using modes over every chord whilst not changing key..
so in C, when G7 is sounding they think they are playing mixo rather than being in the key of G over chord V.. thinking like that just leads them into a world of confusion..
If I'm playing G7 in the key of C, the V chord is G7 and if the next chord is Cmaj - I'm going to go batshit crazy... if it's not I'll play G lydian dominant or G mixo
But then I grew up not knowing the difference between relative and derivative methods of modes... the two serve vastly different purposes that are essentially the same thing but serve people in different ways..
Relative - good for pitch axis over static vamps
Derivative - good for fast moving diatonic stuff in a known key.
IMO
I'm just talking about novice players just taking their first steps into the basic of theory and stuff..
if the piece of music is in C, it don't matter what chords from the key of C are happening, you're still in the key of C..
it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.. the prob is.. they tend not to learn much from it..
EDIT: I feel the need to add to the comment above to ensure that I'm not misunderstood..
there's a lot of us that are so comfortable with music academia, that when asked a question we answer it.. and oh fk do we answer it.. we can easily get carried away trying to stuff everything we know into some fellas head thinking that we're actually helping.. I've done this so many times that folk stopped asking me stuff.. they'd ask "Clarky, give me the short version".. and then I'd still go off on one… so after time, I've actually come to understand that often the best answer to a question is not the fullest one that eventually ends up at sub-atomic levels.. but the simplest one that can actually be understood by the person asking.. which then hopefully sticks with them..
so this.. "it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.." is actually a comment about me.. unintentionally wiping out a noobs brain whilst thinking to myself "yeah.. I really helped that guy".. I'm hoping it's a habit I've killed off now.. which is why I was trying to avoid bring the whole modes mess into answering the question.. a simple question should hopefully get a simple answer..
Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21)
to get the chords of the 7th, you simply stack the next 3rd in the scale on top of the triad you have..
7th chord spellings:
maj7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, maj7th
dominant7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, min7th
min7th: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th
half diminished 7th [aka m7b5]: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th
so... using the scale of C, chord I7 = C, E, G, B, C triad with a maj7th = Cmaj7
chord II7 = D, F, A, C, Dm triad with a min7th = Dm7
and so on
you should now notice that things change a bit.. in a major scale there are two maj7 cohrds, three min7 chords, one dom7 and one m7b5.. so when chords of the 7th show up, it starts screwing down your scale options... and as chord V7 only occurs once, you generally [but not always] consider it to be chord V of a given key..
for example.. A7 is chord V of D, C7 is V of F, G7 is V of C..
in the event that you see a dom7 chord, that is not chord V of the key you're in, you still treat it as if it were chord V of the key it should relate to..
example..
progression: Em / D / Am / C7
chords Em, D and Am are in the key of Em, C7 is not. C7 is V of F, so when the C7 is sounding, you can start playing licks / choosing notes from the key of F.. you are now playing modally just over this chord.. you'll be plaing C Mixolydian.. when the progression starts over with the Em chord, you return to the key of Em..
this sort of thing id a nice way to start dipping your toe into the pool of modal playing..
ahh ok... I thought maybe you was having a bit of agg getting your head around some of the nuts and bolts..
No worries, thanks again for the explanation. It has cleared the last of the murk.
Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21)
I think the killer thing is to learn everything in the right order..
chromatic scale, then intervals, then the scale, then chord spellings.. and then to see the chords fall out of the scale and work out what they are..
learn a little at a time and make sure that each of those lil' things is 100% nailled before moving on.. because each topic builds on the previous and paves the way for the next..
then it'll all make sense and stick