High output pickup- disappointed vs ‘overwound’ vintage

Crazyblue1779 · October 2020

I have a Vintage Les Paul with a Tonerider Rocksong pickup in the bridge. It’s classed as an overwound vintage HB.

I also have an LTD EC-256 into which I put an Iron Gear Metal Machine, this is (apparently) their highest output passive pickup.

Obviously they’re different guitars, the LTD has a thinner body, and it also has SLIGHTLY heavier strings (theres 11-54 on the LTD and 10-52 on the Vintage) but when it comes to distorted sound and output the tone of the LTD isn’t nearly as clear or articulate as the Vintage and quite simply doesn’t sound as good!

The LTD sounds slightly muddy ( even on the stock neck pickup too). They’ve both been well set up so it’s not an issue with that.

I’m using Bias FX 2 mobile to compare them so so everything is a similar as possible.

Am I expecting too much? I thought there would at least be some sort of difference in output between the two? Or is it less to do with the pickups and more to do with the guitars?

soma1975 · October 2020

I'm sure tons of people can chime in and point out examples of the opposite but as a general rule, overwound pickups tend to be more compressed and less bright and articulate than vintage wound ones. And the higher output won't be too noticeable if you are already hitting an amp (model) that has run out of headroom - it will just compress more.

I used to have an EC-256 and Tonerider Alnico IVs opened it right up.

Grumpyrocker · October 2020

I put some Iron Gear Steam Hammer pickups in my EC-256. And noticed a similar lack of grunt.

I reckon it's the pots/caps. I'm thinking of rewiring the guitar as the pickups are fine.

Sassafras · October 2020

Try lowering the pickups. That can improve clarity and definition.

skullfunkerry · October 2020

I had Metal Machines in my Charvel, and they sounded very similar to the active pickups in my Strat, which suited me. I recorded a comparison at the time:

Since I use quite a lot of gain I guess that the differences are going to be hidden in part, as @soma1975 has pointed out above

TTBZ · October 2020

My guitar has a relatively low output P90 neck pickup and a super high output bridge humbucker. Due to how much more compressed the bridge pickup is, it sounds quiet and dull compared to the neck no matter what I do with pickup heights, despite being a 22k beast. Originally I bought the bridge pickup for the compression and fatness but now I just find it flat and uninspiring. My favourite pickups seem to be in the "vintage hot" range somewhere around 8-10k with alnico 5 magnets. Enough power to not sound weedy enough headroom to avoid slamming everything into compression.

HAL9000 · October 2020

TTBZ said:

My favourite pickups seem to be in the "vintage hot" range somewhere around 8-10k with alnico 5 magnets. Enough power to not sound weedy enough headroom to avoid slamming everything into compression.

^ This. Vintage hot seem, to me at least, to be articulate and have clarity with the guitar volume knocked back, but can growl when the volume is turned up.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2020

TTBZ said:

My guitar has a relatively low output P90 neck pickup and a super high output bridge humbucker. Due to how much more compressed the bridge pickup is, it sounds quiet and dull compared to the neck no matter what I do with pickup heights, despite being a 22k beast. Originally I bought the bridge pickup for the compression and fatness but now I just find it flat and uninspiring. My favourite pickups seem to be in the "vintage hot" range somewhere around 8-10k with alnico 5 magnets. Enough power to not sound weedy enough headroom to avoid slamming everything into compression.

Resistance does not equal output.

Kittyfrisk · October 2020

Resistance is futile.

skullfunkerry · October 2020

Ola Englund’s Solar guitars all have relatively low output pickups in them - I saw a video where it was mentioned (possibly that Andertons “teaching them to chug” one) and he said that you can always boost a pickup to add more gain and compression, but super hot pickups don’t give you the option of taking it away

PonchoGreg · October 2020

As someone above said, if you're slamming an already maxed out digital interface, diminishing returns might be kicking in... It'll just be less clear and more compressed. Could definitely be a case of less is more, and slightly cooler pickup will allow more dynamics to come through, while still giving you more than enough gain to chug away.

Can't say I've tried that specific pickup, but maybe an overwound Rolling Mill from Iron Gear might be enough output-wise for you (doesn't look miles removed from the TR Rocksong output-wise, with the added "bite" of A5 as opposed to A2)?

But also... it could definitely be the guitar (including the rest of the electronics) as you're not exactly comparing like for like.

Maybe swap the pickups around between guitars and see what that yields?

Crazyblue1779 · October 2020

PonchoGreg said:

As someone above said, if you're slamming an already maxed out digital interface, diminishing returns might be kicking in... It'll just be less clear and more compressed. Could definitely be a case of less is more, and slightly cooler pickup will allow more dynamics to come through, while still giving you more than enough gain to chug away.

Can't say I've tried that specific pickup, but maybe an overwound Rolling Mill from Iron Gear might be enough output-wise for you (doesn't look miles removed from the TR Rocksong output-wise, with the added "bite" of A5 as opposed to A2)?

But also... it could definitely be the guitar (including the rest of the electronics) as you're not exactly comparing like for like.

Maybe swap the pickups around between guitars and see what that yields?

This is probably something I’m going to try for a couple of reasons.

The Toneriders in the Vintage are being replaced this week with an Iron Gear Hot Slag / Rolling Mill combo so I’ll have them spare.

I’m also determined to learn how to install pickups myself ( I currently pay someone else to do it) so the LTD will be a perfect test subject.

It’s not my main guitar and it’s not expensive so if I repeatedly make a hash of things for the first few attempts then it’ll not be the end of the world.

I can’t solder yet (Technology lessons in school are but a distant memory) but I figured I’d give it a go.

Expect a separate thread on this adventure soon....LOL

PonchoGreg · October 2020

Good luck! The good news is that the ltd will be an easy guitar to work with as everything is accessible via the control cavity. So unlike a strat for instance you can do everything with strings on (once you've actually put the pickups in of course). You don't even have to close the control cavity up to test, so troubleshooting is more straightforward and it's easy to go back and redo joints etc without having to restring/retune.

Enjoy! Rewiring guitars is fun once you've had a bit of practice

Grumpyrocker · October 2020

After pondering the thread went back to my EC-256 and yes I've got the pickups way too high. Lowered them quite a bit and very happy with the result. Don't think I'll bother with a rewire now.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

High output pickup- disappointed vs ‘overwound’ vintage

Comments