It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Subscribe to our Patreon, and get image uploads with no ads on the site!
Base theme by DesignModo & ported to Powered by Vanilla by Chris Ireland, modified by the "theFB" team.
Comments
These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat.
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that?
Or am I missing something?
Although it's not high on the list of issues musicians will face but I see the CITES thing is back in there. So, it will apply in this instance despite having been dropped?
You should perhaps check out Rule 1 too. It's very short and simple to understand.
There is nothing romantic or glamorous about the kind of touring that I have done. No white kittens, no green M&Ms no panoramic hotel rooms overlooking the Danube filled with sweet innocent babes just dying to have sex with the clarinetist (me). No huge spreads in 5 star hotels and no hanging out with international stars, snorting coke and drinking all night. And despite no holiday behaviour, there was at least a 12 hour day, every day of tiring and often tedious work. Sometimes for months with an occasional day off in some shitty place in a shitty hotel on the outskirts of nowhere.
No, it's a fucking job just like the 12 hours you're putting in every day. A job. You know, that elusive thing called work that I trained for since the age of 7, in school, college, hours of practise at home then in college and practise every day to maintain my skills. That kind of job.
And you're not "supposed" to blame anyone for anything. You can choose to look for someone to blame if you wish. Good luck finding them, I hope they deserve it.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1326554078256656389.html
One respondent has picked up on some details and commented ...
[ quote ]
Just a note and rather minor in the scheme of the hassles they are going to have the part about filling in the SAD(C88) isn’t correct, to cut a long story short it’s the base document for the data required in (currently) CHIEF. There is no way anyone not trained could do it anyway.
I would also point out that yes the cost of the ATA carnet is accurate but that’s just for raising it, you will also need to provide security based on the value so considerable up front costs.
Oh and I would also point out that you wouldn’t need a separate carnet for each item. One can cover multiple items on the ‘general list’ starting at page 2 and I have dealt with some that have a hundred items or so.
Again not a big deal in the scheme of things but it should be noted some small inaccuracies in the tweets.
[ end quote ]
British bands toured the continent from the 50s onwards and for sure the financial equation was no better back in the day than now. There are many local musicians in my area (East Anglia) that would pop over and do a 1-2 week tour of Germany to huge acclaim before ever we had seamless borders. They never made much money directly (just as they didn't here at home), but had loyal followings and sold a few pressings. Such is the way and I'm confident it will continue albeit slightly different.
In terms of Carnet etc. there used to a hundreds of small shipping/clearing offices around Felixstowe/Harwich/Ramsgate/Dover etc. that would sort your documents and present them to customs for a small fee, they also knew corresponding small companies on the other coast that could assist likewise from there for their 'clients'. This industry will sprout up fairly quickly and settle down within a few months because there is money to be made.
It wouldn't surprise me if some enterprising individuals set up backline type hire businesses (or expand existing businesses) to cater for the changes. That way your 'carry over' stuff would be guitar, pedals, cymbals etc. and the rest could be hired for the duration and left over there when you return. How many of us have loaned our backline to the headline band from France/Holland/Germany while they mini tour in the pubs and clubs over here?
It's just different and a change (back). I didn't vote leave for the record, but I know shipping/customs from my day jobs and I know touring/gigging from my weekend warrior activities and commerce will find a way. It was always difficult financially to tour a new/unknown band and I don't see that overall situation has changed.
- For a five-piece amateur band plus one roadie, an extra £600 for EU work visas isn't insignificant.
- Most amateur bands will use a European tour to build their audience, not to make money.
- To get a work visa, you need to already have your tour booked. You also need to pay for your flights, and have proof of accommodation before you apply for it, and there's a significant non-zero chance of being rejected and thus losing all the money you've paid out.
- Amateur bands will usually have a deal for somewhere to crash as part of each gig booking, which won't be sufficient as proof of accommodation (unlike hotel booking invoices, for example).
- Another requirement for a visa is proof of employment in the form of a contract, which most venues don't provide.
- ...and then there's the language proficiency requirement, which...yeah, we're British. That doesn't work.
- Oh, and carnets, as previously mentioned.
The world is a very different place from the 80s, when this was last an issue, and so the difficulties aren't the same either.
EDIT: Also worth noting that yes, these are trying times for all of us, but - as shit as it is at the moment - they are temporary for most. The issues for musicians caused by leaving the EU will be with us for many decades, so they might as well be considered a permanent problem. That bears discussion, so if the only reason you joined the thread was to demonstrate how little you care about the folks whose careers in the music industry will be harmed because of this, I'd venture to suggest that it's probably not the best reflection of how you see yourself.
I'm a tour manager, production manager and sound engineer. I make my living through touring with artists ranging from multiple-Grammy winners to emerging independent bands. I'm part of an industry full of skilled, dedicated professionals that contributes billions to the economy every year.
The impact of Brexit on our industry is huge. There's more to the live music business than your projection of a bunch of lads on their jollies in a Transit van. Contrary to what you clearly believe we already "treat things professionally, prepare paperwork, calculate the viability and treat it like a job and not a holiday" because for roughly 600,000 people in the UK, it actually IS our job.
The financial realities of touring at anything up to venues of a few thousand capacity is that budgets are always tight, especially so on smaller gigs. The adminstrative and financial burdens of securing work permits/visas for your touring party in every country you visit, plus managing tax liabilities in each individual country, plus carnet costs and bonds, plus extra travel days on the itinerary to account for the mess we'll have made of the border crossing in/out of the country holding up trucks is going to make touring in Europe vastly more expensive for established artists, and near-impossible for young emerging acts trying to build an audience.
For every added cost on those tours, savings will have to be made elsewhere - crew numbers will be cut and production will be scaled back, meaning jobs and revenue lost in the UK.
Our live production industry is world class and we have some incredible suppliers here in the UK that are world leaders in their specialised fields. Many international artists, particularly those from the US, will use UK based suppliers for sound, lighting, video, technical crew, staging, trucking and tour buses etc for their European engagements. These changes, and the adminstrative and financial impacts, mean our UK suppliers will become uncompetitive compared to our counterparts on the mainland, and business is already being lost for this exact reason, with European suppliers benefiting and UK companies losing out. More lost jobs, more lost revenue.
So although, like you, I've never slept with Angelina Jolie, what I have done is worked incredibly hard to build a career in an industry that I love, achieved (moderate) success and have been able to provide for my family through doing so. Now my livelihood, and that of hundreds of thousands of my colleagues, peers and friends, is at risk.
I'm already seeing the huge consequences of COVID and 12+ months of cancelled work on our industry with huge redundancies, closed venues, suppliers folding. The changes brought about by Brexit are just going to make it even harder for people who are already struggling.
If your business is struggling, I'm sorry to hear that, and - unlike you - I extend my sympathy. However, like @merlin I'd love to be back at work doing 18 hour days, taking a bunch of trucks in to an empty arena and working with a team of incredibly skilled and passionate people to turn that in to a mind blowing show, then packing it all up and grabbing a few hours sleep in a tin can on wheels before we do it all again the next morning.
Touring isn't a holiday, and the changes coming out way don't just mean filling in a few forms and paying an extra bill. It's ordinary working people doing a job they've trained to do, paying their bills and feeding their families. Try and have a little empathy.