Do bricks & mortar shops also buy guitars on eBay to flip?

StefB · December 2020

The subject of bedroom dealers and their practises has been well documented on here lately, but I wondered if some shops buy used stock on eBay from private sellers as well?

I couldn't help but notice a guitar I recognised from eBay a couple of weeks ago, and nearly bid on, has appeared for sale at a shop at more than double the price*

Let me caveat this first by saying:-

a) it might not be the same guitar, as the dealer has blurred out the serial number on the certificate of authenticity in their ad, but the manufacture date is still visible so chances are it is

b) someone else entirely may have bought the guitar on eBay a couple of weeks back and since traded it in

c) I have no issue with legitimate shops buying stock from wherever they wish and advertising/selling it for whatever price they feel to be fair

d) *I know VAT, warranty, overheads, haggling & profit have to be factored in, of course...

..I just wondered whether it was commonplace that's all, especially during this strangest of years in which some of our TfB Trader members have already said it has been difficult sourcing decent stock.

eBay sale at £1,341
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ernie-Ball-Musicman-JPX-Barolo-/124453846960?hash=item1cfa06ffb0:g:CgcAAOSwxsNfu5t9&nma=true&si=JBi2aemMMeKYuNEqBx5RpcBTsRI%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Shop ad at £2,895
https://www.fretsguitarcentre.co.uk/contents/en-uk/p4270_Used-Ernie-Ball-Music-Man-John-Petrucci-JPX-BFR-(2010)---Barolo.html

Whitecat · December 2020

Yes. I have sold guitars to a bricks & mortar shop - who are a main dealer for several major brands - not knowing it was a bricks & mortar shop at the time because the guy lied to me about his interests - said he was just a collector who likes to buy and sell loads - not that it matters much I guess but I now wouldn’t trust the shop in question. Found my guitars online a few days later with a hefty markup...

guitars4you · December 2020

Just had a similar conversation with another FB member - I've brought the odd guitar from this Forum's Classified - In each case they knew it was me asking about the option to buy

Capitalism always dictates we buy for a £1 and sell for £2 - Or the principle of that - I dare say any bricks n mortar dealer that has the time to explore such sites will find the odd 'bargain' and snap it up as and when - But as an overview there is not enough of such deals out there

However, I don't follow Facebook, gumtree, e-bay etc - Don't have the time - The large majority of stock I buy is via customers contacting me direct - Maybe they have tried listings on such sites - Maybe they don't have the time and/or inclination to bother with such hassle and all that goes with it - But I've been in the trade 42 years - I've owned/ran G4U for around 16 years - So I've acquired some brownie points and via this I get enough stock offered to me without chasing it - I dare say harder for the new kids on the block to do this

Yet I would say 2020 has been the hardest to get stock via my customers contacting me - I've put this down to, that many now have time, via working from home, to try the usual used sites - Of course they will still get more this way than a sale to me - In the past, many busy guys don't want that hassle - So will just call me - Plus no guitar shows for me and I can normally find some guitars for sale via such events

A large part of my used stock also comes from trade ins

But overall I get enough stock to keep the business going - Yet I'm now more in a relaxed + semi-retirement mode and don't wish to carry as many guitars in stock - Quality not quantity still applied to me

guitars4you · December 2020

Whitecat said:

Yes. I have sold guitars to a bricks & mortar shop - who are a main dealer for several major brands - not knowing it was a bricks & mortar shop at the time because the guy lied to me about his interests - said he was just a collector who likes to buy and sell loads - not that it matters much I guess but I now wouldn’t trust the shop in question. Found my guitars online a few days later with a hefty markup...

I'm not sure why a dealer would wish to lie about who they are - I appreciate the fundamentals of capitalism in that I buy for £1 and sell for £2 - Thinking about it I very rarely get the chance to double up on my buying price - But I dare say in most cases, customers approach me so in such instances they know who I am in any case

However, I do get many instances whereby they expect me to pay £1400 for a guitar that is worth £1500 - I believe you have to be fair and if you can't agree on a price then so be it - Move on

guitars4you · December 2020

I think it is less common now - But I recall in the past, that once or twice I brought a used guitar, from another dealer, who probably did not know what it was, or what its potential value was - My own Tom Murphy 57 Gold Top LP was from GuitarGuitar - And I was so happy with such a deal I paid there asking price - But these are the exceptions

Whitecat · December 2020

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

Yes. I have sold guitars to a bricks & mortar shop - who are a main dealer for several major brands - not knowing it was a bricks & mortar shop at the time because the guy lied to me about his interests - said he was just a collector who likes to buy and sell loads - not that it matters much I guess but I now wouldn’t trust the shop in question. Found my guitars online a few days later with a hefty markup...

I'm not sure why a dealer would wish to lie about who they are - I appreciate the fundamentals of capitalism in that I buy for £1 and sell for £2 - Thinking about it I very rarely get the chance to double up on my buying price - But I dare say in most cases, customers approach me so in such instances they know who I am in any case

However, I do get many instances whereby they expect me to pay £1400 for a guitar that is worth £1500 - I believe you have to be fair and if you can't agree on a price then so be it - Move on

Exactly - had he been honest that he was a dealer buying for stock I probably still would have done the deal anyway, maybe shown interest in his other stock/lines and kept him in mind for the future. But because he didn’t and in fact invented a completely different story (paired up with claims of “I really don’t even know what these are worth, mate!” - as if) not only was he scratched off the “future sale” list on principle I won’t use his shop either for anything, because dishonesty is not a good quality in a businessperson.

Danny1969 · December 2020

I know loads of car dealers with garages who buy cars on Ebay to flip and loads of computer places who buy laptops to flip. I can't see why guitar dealers would be any different. I've brought loads of pedals and amps from Ebay to flip once I repaired them .... never got round to the selling part though on most of them

DB1 · December 2020

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

Yes. I have sold guitars to a bricks & mortar shop - who are a main dealer for several major brands - not knowing it was a bricks & mortar shop at the time because the guy lied to me about his interests - said he was just a collector who likes to buy and sell loads - not that it matters much I guess but I now wouldn’t trust the shop in question. Found my guitars online a few days later with a hefty markup...

I'm not sure why a dealer would wish to lie about who they are - I appreciate the fundamentals of capitalism in that I buy for £1 and sell for £2 - Thinking about it I very rarely get the chance to double up on my buying price - But I dare say in most cases, customers approach me so in such instances they know who I am in any case

However, I do get many instances whereby they expect me to pay £1400 for a guitar that is worth £1500 - I believe you have to be fair and if you can't agree on a price then so be it - Move on

Exactly - had he been honest that he was a dealer buying for stock I probably still would have done the deal anyway, maybe shown interest in his other stock/lines and kept him in mind for the future. But because he didn’t and in fact invented a completely different story (paired up with claims of “I really don’t even know what these are worth, mate!” - as if) not only was he scratched off the “future sale” list on principle I won’t use his shop either for anything, because dishonesty is not a good quality in a businessperson.

Yes, I understand that - yesterday I sold something on eBay after three offers, ostensibly from a private buyer. Each time, I sent a nice message explaining why it wasn't quite enough. I got nothing back but a higher offer. On the third go, I accepted it. I sent a friendly message explaining how it would be posted (next day, guaranteed, insured etc) - nothing back, no rapport. Fair enough, some people are like that.

I checked the details and their other persona was a shop where they marked the same thing up by about 80% (in fact, just a few quid short of the new price).

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with them selling things on at a profit, even a high profit - that's how things work - and if they'd have announced themselves as a dealer, I would have accepted the deal without a doubt. I would deal with a dealer just as readily as I would with a private individual.

It's the sneakiness or subterfuge that I don't like. So I cancelled it and refunded.

AK99 · December 2020

In Ireland here we have a fairly popular national site called Adverts which would be similar to Gumtree. There's usually about 1000 or so electric guitars up for sale at any give time. Anything underpriced gets snapped up within 20-30 mins of posting, or less.There are the usual flippers of course, but also undercover dealers who use a variety of usernames to source and buy stuff that is resealable stuff elsewhere.

The sharper ones not only use a variety of usernames to help cover their tracks, but also have a habit of engaging with the sellers by private message, and agreeing a sale subject to the item being 'withdrawn', which conceals the name of the buyer and the amount paid. Its only when you recognise something familiar coming up for sale elsewhere - either online or in a bricks and mortar shop that the penny drops.

Its inevitable really, free market, free world so I dont mind it in principle so much. The by now common practice of sniping at sellers pointing out real or potential flaws in their kit to 'soften them up' / drive down the price purely to help the flippers/resellers boost their own profit margins , however, that gets wearying.

Sassafras · December 2020

Why shouldn't they?
They have to make a profit to pay for the bricks & mortar.
They're not gonna pass up the chance to make a few quid.

Epsilon · December 2020

Yep, Wunjo on Denmark St bought an acoustic from me on ebay using a private account. I also sold another guitar to a shop in the North East but I can't remember the name of it.

Creed_Clicks · December 2020

@AK99 I'm a daily users of adverts, and I've often seen the good stuff decently priced get snapped up in a flash. I just happened to be online one day when a Rockinbetter Ric bass was posted and managed to offer asking, just got in ahead of another user. I was lucky then, but I have not come across stuff from adverts for sale in shops, but maybe that's just the price range I'm digging around in.

FastEddie · December 2020

I find it perfectly Ok to arbitrage guitars as it is most things.

A few years back, when the $ was $1.90/£1 I bought dozens of guitars and watches from the USA ebay site and sold them on the UK ebay site for a lot more.
Perfectly reasonable to do.

I can't see the problem with someone doing this. If I have missed something then I will of course reconsider.

MattNovak · December 2020

Creed_Clicks said:

@AK99 I'm a daily users of adverts, and I've often seen the good stuff decently priced get snapped up in a flash. I just happened to be online one day when a Rockinbetter Ric bass was posted and managed to offer asking, just got in ahead of another user. I was lucky then, but I have not come across stuff from adverts for sale in shops, but maybe that's just the price range I'm digging around in.

Used to use adverts.ie when I lived in Belfast but worked in Dublin. Two stories spring to mind:

I missed an old Marshall head (like, 1960's old) that was in someones garage - I think the bloke asked €20 or something

Someone offered to swap me a replica AK-47 for a Danelectro I was selling.

chrishill901 · December 2020

Yep they sure do. There was a PRS Tremonti on here that I was desperate for, it was the perfect guitar for me but I had some gear for sale. When I finally got the dosh together it had been sold (knowingly) to World Guitars who slapped an extra £800 on it which, knowing that if I’d have managed to get the money earlier I’d have saved, I couldn’t justify. It sold on WG though. But the original seller was never going to get £800 more for it, only a retailer who offers the levels of customer service expected by a retailer and returns etc could command that kind of price. At the end of the day the seller got what he wanted for it, as did the retailer. No harm no fowl.

What this does highlight is something quite important. A guitar has 2 values. What it is worth from a private seller and what it is worth from a retailer. A guitar is always going to cost more from a retailer for the many reasons discussed in the threads about this sort of thing. A private seller can’t offer the security a retailer can. What is bad form though are these private sellers who are masquerading as shops with their half decent photographs and wix websites. They’re doing the same as the retailers but they have nothing extra to offer for the money that the retailers can. And they do it more frequently. Still in the market for a PRS I have lost out to a few that have ended up in Leicester or similar, with an extra £1k on top but they’re still essentially being sold by a private seller. It is harder and harder to get a bargain. But at the prices these ‘pigs’ are charging I’d rather wait for one to come up at Peach or WG.

Hurling_Fruitmig · December 2020

chrishill901 said:

Yep they sure do. There was a PRS Tremonti on here that I was desperate for, it was the perfect guitar for me but I had some gear for sale. When I finally got the dosh together it had been sold (knowingly) to World Guitars who slapped an extra £800 on it which, knowing that if I’d have managed to get the money earlier I’d have saved, I couldn’t justify. It sold on WG though. But the original seller was never going to get £800 more for it, only a retailer who offers the levels of customer service expected by a retailer and returns etc could command that kind of price. At the end of the day the seller got what he wanted for it, as did the retailer. No harm no fowl.

What this does highlight is something quite important. A guitar has 2 values. What it is worth from a private seller and what it is worth from a retailer. A guitar is always going to cost more from a retailer for the many reasons discussed in the threads about this sort of thing. A private seller can’t offer the security a retailer can. What is bad form though are these private sellers who are masquerading as shops with their half decent photographs and wix websites. They’re doing the same as the retailers but they have nothing extra to offer for the money that the retailers can. And they do it more frequently. Still in the market for a PRS I have lost out to a few that have ended up in Leicester or similar, with an extra £1k on top but they’re still essentially being sold by a private seller. It is harder and harder to get a bargain. But at the prices these ‘pigs’ are charging I’d rather wait for one to come up at Peach or WG.

I'm not sure I understand; what 'customer service' and 'security' would I get for an additional £800 paid to a retailer?

Sassafras · December 2020

Hurling_Fruitmig said:

chrishill901 said:

Yep they sure do. There was a PRS Tremonti on here that I was desperate for, it was the perfect guitar for me but I had some gear for sale. When I finally got the dosh together it had been sold (knowingly) to World Guitars who slapped an extra £800 on it which, knowing that if I’d have managed to get the money earlier I’d have saved, I couldn’t justify. It sold on WG though. But the original seller was never going to get £800 more for it, only a retailer who offers the levels of customer service expected by a retailer and returns etc could command that kind of price. At the end of the day the seller got what he wanted for it, as did the retailer. No harm no fowl.

What this does highlight is something quite important. A guitar has 2 values. What it is worth from a private seller and what it is worth from a retailer. A guitar is always going to cost more from a retailer for the many reasons discussed in the threads about this sort of thing. A private seller can’t offer the security a retailer can. What is bad form though are these private sellers who are masquerading as shops with their half decent photographs and wix websites. They’re doing the same as the retailers but they have nothing extra to offer for the money that the retailers can. And they do it more frequently. Still in the market for a PRS I have lost out to a few that have ended up in Leicester or similar, with an extra £1k on top but they’re still essentially being sold by a private seller. It is harder and harder to get a bargain. But at the prices these ‘pigs’ are charging I’d rather wait for one to come up at Peach or WG.

I'm not sure I understand; what 'customer service' and 'security' would I get for an additional £800 paid to a retailer?

Of course, you're perfectly free to buy from someone who'll tell you to fuck off if there's a problem with your new purchase.

ToneControl · December 2020

What's the problem with this generically?
Would you rather see the physical guitar shops not sell used gear? or close down?

if they "declare" they are a dealer would you refuse to sell it to them, or demand a higher price?

A shop where you can try out a guitar and offer tangible support and warranties is essential for many, and costs a lot for rent, staff and finance. I can't see any morality issue in real shops charging more than second hand private sale prices

Fishboy7 · December 2020

The mainstream dealers e.g. Coda always price their used stock pretty reasonably as presumably they don't want it hanging around for months or years.

rossi · December 2020

Quite a few people out there dont like or use the internet .A local shop,not a guitar store, who shall remain nameless said they are doing very well because people dont like buying on the internet .He actually said they are scared witless by plugging in a computer .So a shop is doing some a favour by selling a product they wont buy online .Profit is profit and it really is up to the seller to get a good price not the buyer to tell him its real price .Antique dealers have been doing it for centuries.

idiotwindow · December 2020

Fishboy7 said:

The mainstream dealers e.g. Coda always price their used stock pretty reasonably as presumably they don't want it hanging around for months or years.

Yes, but much of that second hand stock will have been taken in part exchange at a price probably much lower than the "fretboard" going rate so Coda can still make a bit of money on the deal and sell a new guitar. Most of the business for dealers like Coda and Peach is in new guitars. Other dealers may depend more on selling used guitars and may need to price accordingly to make a living.

I'm not sure I get all the angst about dealer prices – showroom or bedroom. If a dealer is pricing too high, the stock will struggle to sell and that is the dealer's problem. It's not like these people are cornering the market in water or some other essential need. These are guitars and they are two-a-penny. Don't like the price, buy somewhere else.

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Do bricks & mortar shops also buy guitars on eBay to flip?

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