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  • ColdfingersColdfingers Frets: 33
    edited March 2021


    That's not really accurate, though. One of those tries was quite literally engineered by the ref - tell the captain to have a word with his players, wait until they're in a huddle with acres of space both sides, then call "time on" and...try.

    That's not 50/50, that's not the rub of the green. It's plain cheating.

    Have a look at it from this angle (and pause it at 1 sec), strange that the defence on (England's) left were in place - there are other videos showing the wing (pretty sure it's Johnny May) running to get into position, but where's the right wing? Why is it Ford out left and why is he walking with his back turned to the ref/Biggar?

    Left side are in position, so why not the right?




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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411


    That's not really accurate, though. One of those tries was quite literally engineered by the ref - tell the captain to have a word with his players, wait until they're in a huddle with acres of space both sides, then call "time on" and...try.

    That's not 50/50, that's not the rub of the green. It's plain cheating.

    Have a look at it from this angle (and pause it at 1 sec), strange that the defence on (England's) left were in place - there are other videos showing the wing (pretty sure it's Johnny May) running to get into position, but where's the right wing? Why is it Ford out left and why is he walking with his back turned to the ref/Biggar?

    Left side are in position, so why not the right?





    The ref has admitted he was wrong.  What more do you need?
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    axisus said:

    so often England have been gifted decisions now it’s against them it’s all ref this ref that?
    What a load of bollocks! However rubbish England are, a sh*te ref is a sh*te ref. 
    @koneguitarist Apologies! I just looked at my reply in the cold light of a new day and it looks unnecessarily rude. That's night time internetting for you.
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30824
    crunchman said:
    I read an article on that incident that said if you regain possession before it hits the ground, it's not a knock on.  In this case he didn't regain possession and it hit his leg, so it should have been a knock on.

    The first try was utterly dreadful though.  There is no way that Wales should have been allowed to play it like that when England hadn't had time to set the defence.

    As badly as England played, those two decisions did change the match.  England lost their composure after going down like that.  It would have been a completely different match, and we will never know how it would have turned out.

    As for the Welsh whinging about other decisions that went England's way, there were other decisions that didn't as well as the two big ones.  There was one penalty Jonathan Davies said was harsh in commentary.  You see people getting away with far worse blocks that the one against Dan Robson for impeding a kick chase all the time as well.  Maybe that is technically a penalty, which is fine, but call it consistently.

    The first 3 or 4 scrums also went down, and the ref told the scrum half to use it and didn't penalise anyone.  Wales got away with that.

    Most of those decisions will even themselves out, but those two "tries" set the whole tone of the match.  Yes England should have held their composure better, but the Welsh should not be complaining about the ref favouring England.  That's totally ridiculous.
    He never had possession in the first place. That is the nuance. 

    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26450


    That's not really accurate, though. One of those tries was quite literally engineered by the ref - tell the captain to have a word with his players, wait until they're in a huddle with acres of space both sides, then call "time on" and...try.

    That's not 50/50, that's not the rub of the green. It's plain cheating.

    Have a look at it from this angle (and pause it at 1 sec), strange that the defence on (England's) left were in place - there are other videos showing the wing (pretty sure it's Johnny May) running to get into position, but where's the right wing? Why is it Ford out left and why is he walking with his back turned to the ref/Biggar?

    Left side are in position, so why not the right?




    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    <space for hire>
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  • axisus said:
    axisus said:

    so often England have been gifted decisions now it’s against them it’s all ref this ref that?
    What a load of bollocks! However rubbish England are, a sh*te ref is a sh*te ref. 
    @koneguitarist Apologies! I just looked at my reply in the cold light of a new day and it looks unnecessarily rude. That's night time internetting for you.
    No problems, we all get a bit wound up now and then I know I do.  ;)
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    axisus said:
    axisus said:

    so often England have been gifted decisions now it’s against them it’s all ref this ref that?
    What a load of bollocks! However rubbish England are, a sh*te ref is a sh*te ref. 
    @koneguitarist Apologies! I just looked at my reply in the cold light of a new day and it looks unnecessarily rude. That's night time internetting for you.
    No problems, we all get a bit wound up now and then I know I do.  ;)

    You should have heard me shouting at the TV on Saturday!
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  • Gassage said:
    crunchman said:
    I read an article on that incident that said if you regain possession before it hits the ground, it's not a knock on.  In this case he didn't regain possession and it hit his leg, so it should have been a knock on.

    The first try was utterly dreadful though.  There is no way that Wales should have been allowed to play it like that when England hadn't had time to set the defence.

    As badly as England played, those two decisions did change the match.  England lost their composure after going down like that.  It would have been a completely different match, and we will never know how it would have turned out.

    As for the Welsh whinging about other decisions that went England's way, there were other decisions that didn't as well as the two big ones.  There was one penalty Jonathan Davies said was harsh in commentary.  You see people getting away with far worse blocks that the one against Dan Robson for impeding a kick chase all the time as well.  Maybe that is technically a penalty, which is fine, but call it consistently.

    The first 3 or 4 scrums also went down, and the ref told the scrum half to use it and didn't penalise anyone.  Wales got away with that.

    Most of those decisions will even themselves out, but those two "tries" set the whole tone of the match.  Yes England should have held their composure better, but the Welsh should not be complaining about the ref favouring England.  That's totally ridiculous.
    He never had possession in the first place. That is the nuance. 
    @Gassage So if he knocks forward and regains ball before it hits floor? No knock on? How about if on an interception you knock ball up and forward and regather no knock on? 
    Interested in your thoughts on 5his because all is not that clear. 
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30824

    Gassage said:
    crunchman said:
    I read an article on that incident that said if you regain possession before it hits the ground, it's not a knock on.  In this case he didn't regain possession and it hit his leg, so it should have been a knock on.

    The first try was utterly dreadful though.  There is no way that Wales should have been allowed to play it like that when England hadn't had time to set the defence.

    As badly as England played, those two decisions did change the match.  England lost their composure after going down like that.  It would have been a completely different match, and we will never know how it would have turned out.

    As for the Welsh whinging about other decisions that went England's way, there were other decisions that didn't as well as the two big ones.  There was one penalty Jonathan Davies said was harsh in commentary.  You see people getting away with far worse blocks that the one against Dan Robson for impeding a kick chase all the time as well.  Maybe that is technically a penalty, which is fine, but call it consistently.

    The first 3 or 4 scrums also went down, and the ref told the scrum half to use it and didn't penalise anyone.  Wales got away with that.

    Most of those decisions will even themselves out, but those two "tries" set the whole tone of the match.  Yes England should have held their composure better, but the Welsh should not be complaining about the ref favouring England.  That's totally ridiculous.
    He never had possession in the first place. That is the nuance. 
    @Gassage So if he knocks forward and regains ball before it hits floor? No knock on? How about if on an interception you knock ball up and forward and regather no knock on? 
    Interested in your thoughts on 5his because all is not that clear. 
    Taff, worth pointing out that there's a law clarification that should be read alongside Law 11/11.2. I'll dig it out later.

    The key here is 'did they have control?'

    In the instances you mention, it's reasonable to assume a degree of control.

    As an aside, the first Maro pen (knocking ball out of Hardy's hand) isn't actually a knock on or illegal. Only if the SH still has ball in back of ruck would it be illegal. It falls under 'dislodged in possession or tackle'.

    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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  • NeillNeill Frets: 941
    edited March 2021
    Re this knock on business I had a vague recollection which has just come back to me.

    In 1999 when Wales famously beat England 32-31 with a late Scott Gibbs try I was convinced the ball was knocked forward by Scott Quinnell before he delivered the telling pass to Gibbs.  If you watch it on Youtube Quinnell clearly fumbles the pass from Howley and the ball goes forwards.  I was told by others at the time that because the ball didn't hit the floor it wasn't a knock on - have the laws changed since then or was this a mistake that no-one picked up?
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30824
    Neill said:
    Re this knock on business I had a vague recollection which has just come back to me.

    In 1999 when Wales famously beat England 32-31 with a late Scott Gibbs try I was convinced the ball was knocked forward by Scott Quinnell before he delivered the telling pass to Gibbs.  If you watch it on Youtube Quinnell clearly fumbles the pass from Howley and the ball goes forwards.  I was told by others at the time that because the ball didn't hit the floor it wasn't a knock on - have the laws changed since then or was this a mistake that no-one picked up?
    The 'ball hitting the floor' is not referenced in laws.

    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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  • @Gassage in the laws its not mentioned but it is mentioned in a definition of the law term knock on. 
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    crunchman said:

    As for the Welsh whinging about other decisions that went England's way, there were other decisions that didn't as well as the two big ones.  There was one penalty Jonathan Davies said was harsh in commentary. 
      I recall JD saying at the time, that something like 4 of the first 5 (or 5 out of 6) penalties against England on Saturday were harsh or wrong.  That was before “try-gate” started.

    i would still be please for someone to show me that Law that says a ref can ping someone for a team’s persistent offending, where it is not preventing a score.  It is double jeopardy, if they (infringe) and clearly several of those first few were not really , certainly not deliberate, infringements, then give a penalty.  If it is preventing a score, then ping.  Otherwise if it is just to do with keeping the game entertaining, you might as well ping a team if they kick the ball 3 times in a row, because that’s bloody boring too :)
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31366


    That's not really accurate, though. One of those tries was quite literally engineered by the ref - tell the captain to have a word with his players, wait until they're in a huddle with acres of space both sides, then call "time on" and...try.

    That's not 50/50, that's not the rub of the green. It's plain cheating.

    Have a look at it from this angle (and pause it at 1 sec), strange that the defence on (England's) left were in place - there are other videos showing the wing (pretty sure it's Johnny May) running to get into position, but where's the right wing? Why is it Ford out left and why is he walking with his back turned to the ref/Biggar?

    Left side are in position, so why not the right?




    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    They had been in the huddle but they sprinted out when it was over, instead of ambling away with their backs to the ball like the two amateurs on the other side. 

    I'm not in any way defending the referee who definitely didn't give England enough time, but Elliot Daly did it again in the second half, allowing the Wales scrum half to score from a quick tap penalty, which is unforgivable even at the lowliest club level. 
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  • p90fool said:


    That's not really accurate, though. One of those tries was quite literally engineered by the ref - tell the captain to have a word with his players, wait until they're in a huddle with acres of space both sides, then call "time on" and...try.

    That's not 50/50, that's not the rub of the green. It's plain cheating.

    Have a look at it from this angle (and pause it at 1 sec), strange that the defence on (England's) left were in place - there are other videos showing the wing (pretty sure it's Johnny May) running to get into position, but where's the right wing? Why is it Ford out left and why is he walking with his back turned to the ref/Biggar?

    Left side are in position, so why not the right?




    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    They had been in the huddle but they sprinted out when it was over, instead of ambling away with their backs to the ball like the two amateurs on the other side. 

    I'm not in any way defending the referee who definitely didn't give England enough time, but Elliot Daly did it again in the second half, allowing the Wales scrum half to score from a quick tap penalty, which is unforgivable even at the lowliest club level. 

    What P90 said - they'd been in the huddle, left side defence were switched on and got into position, right side were ambling about.

    Here from about 14:45


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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26450


    p90fool said:
    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    They had been in the huddle but they sprinted out when it was over, instead of ambling away with their backs to the ball like the two amateurs on the other side. 

    I'm not in any way defending the referee who definitely didn't give England enough time, but Elliot Daly did it again in the second half, allowing the Wales scrum half to score from a quick tap penalty, which is unforgivable even at the lowliest club level. 

    What P90 said - they'd been in the huddle, left side defence were switched on and got into position, right side were ambling about.

    Here from about 14:45


    The left side weren't much further out than the right - they certainly weren't even close to covering the wing, and the huddle was on the left post. There's absolutely no way that enough players could've got away from the huddle in time to properly cover it.

    Yes, they could have got out there a little quicker, but it wouldn't have made a difference because there just wasn't enough time left by the ref, short of a dead sprint. If we're going to talk about wasting time, we could always take a look at how much time Wales deliberately wasted getting to every single line-out. Imagine the outrage if the ref decided to pull the same trick there ;)
    <space for hire>
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited March 2021
    Are the Six Nations about to become the Five Nations for this year? It seems France is being investigated for Covid breaches. Scotland may be awarded a bonus-point win or France may be removed from the Championship.

    Interesting!!




    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30824


    p90fool said:
    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    They had been in the huddle but they sprinted out when it was over, instead of ambling away with their backs to the ball like the two amateurs on the other side. 

    I'm not in any way defending the referee who definitely didn't give England enough time, but Elliot Daly did it again in the second half, allowing the Wales scrum half to score from a quick tap penalty, which is unforgivable even at the lowliest club level. 

    What P90 said - they'd been in the huddle, left side defence were switched on and got into position, right side were ambling about.

    Here from about 14:45


    The left side weren't much further out than the right - they certainly weren't even close to covering the wing, and the huddle was on the left post. There's absolutely no way that enough players could've got away from the huddle in time to properly cover it.

    Yes, they could have got out there a little quicker, but it wouldn't have made a difference because there just wasn't enough time left by the ref, short of a dead sprint. If we're going to talk about wasting time, we could always take a look at how much time Wales deliberately wasted getting to every single line-out. Imagine the outrage if the ref decided to pull the same trick there ;)

    It makes no odds.

    YOU CANNOT RESTART THE GAME*
    when water carriers and tech staff are on the pitch. There's 5 in total- 3 Eng, 2 Welsh.

    This is a direct edict from WR.

    (*well, Gauzere can.)

    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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  • Gassage said:


    p90fool said:
    That's pretty much irrelevant - the fact that a couple of players were covering because they didn't need to be in the huddle doesn't change what the ref did or the end result. If all the players were covering, there would've been no huddle and the ref could rightly have pinged Farrell for not following his instructions.
    They had been in the huddle but they sprinted out when it was over, instead of ambling away with their backs to the ball like the two amateurs on the other side. 

    I'm not in any way defending the referee who definitely didn't give England enough time, but Elliot Daly did it again in the second half, allowing the Wales scrum half to score from a quick tap penalty, which is unforgivable even at the lowliest club level. 

    What P90 said - they'd been in the huddle, left side defence were switched on and got into position, right side were ambling about.

    Here from about 14:45


    The left side weren't much further out than the right - they certainly weren't even close to covering the wing, and the huddle was on the left post. There's absolutely no way that enough players could've got away from the huddle in time to properly cover it.

    Yes, they could have got out there a little quicker, but it wouldn't have made a difference because there just wasn't enough time left by the ref, short of a dead sprint. If we're going to talk about wasting time, we could always take a look at how much time Wales deliberately wasted getting to every single line-out. Imagine the outrage if the ref decided to pull the same trick there ;)

    It makes no odds.

    YOU CANNOT RESTART THE GAME*
    when water carriers and tech staff are on the pitch. There's 5 in total- 3 Eng, 2 Welsh.

    This is a direct edict from WR.

    (*well, Gauzere can.)
    Interesting video on Twitter showing Farrell doing a similar cross kick for Ashton to score with water guys on the pitch just after ref warns opposition captain about repeat offences. Quite a few of opposition are waiting for their captain  and not getting ready for a penalty. Farrell as any fly half is alert to a quick one and does so. 
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30824
    For those interested- my take on what England need to do..

    Five headaches for Eddie Jones after latest defeat | Planet Rugby

    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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