Pontins 'undesirable guest list'

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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 12258
    I've been to Pontins when the kids were younger a couple of times, it is what it is, and it is ROUGH AS FUCK!!! but the kids love it and that's a big deal for a parent, even for those with 5 bellies and neck tattoos. Don't judge =)
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9449
    edited March 2021
    PhilW1 said:
    I a nightmare break with two young kids at Pontins where a group of travellers turned up,there must have been twenty of them, young and old ,and they were just lawless ,no care to anybody but themselves .We cut our holiday short.
    It happens.

    You see, Pontins have done this for a reason. Something happeneD somewhere, which they thoughts involved a certain group of people.

    Racist ? Yes.

    But there’s a reason behind most things, and thE powers that be at Pontins are more concerned with the well being of thoese peacefully staying there, and the property itself, than the PC  brigade.

    So, in their minds, how do they prevent this happening with online bookings ?

    By the surnames.

    It is discriminatory and affects many good people with similar names.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24211
    It's difficult to choose the right words when even discussing the subject because it's such a sensitive matter.   I think I have a solution to the problem though; once a person from the traveller community gets suspected of an offence, they have their surname changed to "Thepikey".  Then, all Pontins need to do is just pretend they're fully booked whenever someone with that surname calls, thus leaving the normal people free to book their holidays in a tacky shithole camp without prejudice.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • zepp76zepp76 Frets: 2534
    Dominic said:
    I've had lots of experience with Travellers...........some good ,some bad
    I wouldn't say they are always bad but having shared a holiday location with them I wouldn't want to do it again .
    They are oblivious to the normal social behaviour/courtesies that people expect when living next door or in the next Chalet / Camping spot etc .
    They also enjoy raucous behaviour amongst themselves and although it's not necessarily aimed at the Gorgers or meant to offend others it's still uncomfortable to be around for most people.
     
    As have I, LOTS of experience and good friends too. When looking from the outside the “Gorga” have to think how a lot of our “normal” (as emp put it) society acts too. I see a lot worse behaviour out there among the non traveller community.
    Tomorrow will be a good day.
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    axisus said:
    Sassafras said:
    I remember a thread not so long ago where lots of us were moaning about how awful gypsies and travellers were.
    So, is it OK for us to criticise them but not for a company that might've had bad experiences with them?
    You honestly can't see the difference between a specific bunch of unpleasant travellers and random human beings that have nothing on them other than a blacklisted surname???? Wow ...
    That's very patronising, I'm not a fuckin moron.
    Of course I can see the difference.
    I just wonder how we would handle the situation if we were running a place that had been trashed, possibly suffered physical attacks to our staff and customers, as well as financial loss.
    Pontins aren't advocating gassing or sterilising travellers, they're just safeguarding themselves from further trouble.
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  • StratavariousStratavarious Frets: 3599
    edited March 2021
    It’s def implemented completely wrong. Wondering what alternative system could be deployed.  National ID?

    Pubs bar individuals..  

    The piles of rubbish, the human excrement in the park, the noise at all hours, the blocked roads and pavement/verges... and that was our usual citizens last Easter here enjoying breaking the rules in the nice weather.
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27346
    Hattigol said:

    What's their policy on blacks and dogs?

    They're welcome.


    Provided they're not  called McGuinness, Gallagher, O'Reilly or Murphy.
    Having trouble posting images here?  This might help.
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  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1687
    edited March 2021
    Personally, after the scenes at the likes of Bournemouth beach etc Last year, I decided I don't get to judge travellers anymore, because when it suits them, the general Population are no better.
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    TTony said:
    Hattigol said:

    What's their policy on blacks and dogs?

    They're welcome.


    Provided they're not  called McGuinness, Gallagher, O'Reilly or Murphy.
    I had a Yorkshire terrier called Murphy.
    Couldn't take him anywhere.
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 3396
    TTony said:
    Hattigol said:

    What's their policy on blacks and dogs?

    They're welcome.


    Provided they're not  called McGuinness, Gallagher, O'Reilly or Murphy.
    No black dogs though.
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16256
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • I gig annually at Pontin's Southport and have witnessed the destruction they cause.. not surprising the management have tried to refuse their attendance albeit via blatant discrimination.

    Perhaps increased powers to move troublemakers on wards are the solution.
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24211
    The bottom line is that travellers are known to have behaviour patterns that are unacceptable to a large proportion of society in general.  Whether that view is considered 'acceptable' in an allegedly egalitarian society is irrelevant - the facts are the facts.  It may be considered discriminatory, and probably is, to judge every individual traveller with the assumption that they are going to display antisocial behaviour.  However, for a business trying to protect its reputation and attractiveness to the majority of clients, what is the answer ?  Do they allow everyone to book and then have to deal reactively with incidents and complaints as and when they occur - on the camp, with all the unwelcome attention that brings - so as not to prejudice the whole traveller community, or do they adopt a policy where they blanket-ban potential troublesome groups from ever setting foot there ?

    Discrimination like this is already in place elsewhere for groups such as hen or stag parties (the assumption, based on evidence, that they are likely to disrupt the peace), children under a certain age, numbers of children of a certain age in shops (the assumption being they will steal).  Nobody kicks up a fuss about that discrimination, but when you group people by a different category to exclude them, it's suddenly no longer acceptable.  The crucial point is whether the discrimination is justified or not.  In this case, they handled it poorly.  They were clearly attempting to exclude the Irish traveller community but roped in a lot of non-traveller Irish people too (and non-Irish with Irish surnames).  That stupidity aside, is it unreasonable for a business to exclude minority groups, however categorised, because the evidence shows that they are more likely to cause trouble than other groups ?  I don't believe it is.  A business isn't obliged to provide a service to you if they choose not to, as long as they have reasonable grounds for the discrimination.  Excluding people because of, say, their skin colour, sexuality or religion would clearly be unreasonable unless there was clear evidence that people of that skin colour, sexuality or religion were much more likely to cause trouble.  The same way they do with kids in shops and hen parties etc.  Obviously this isn't the case - as skin colour, sexuality or religion has no bearing at all on how much of an asshole you can be.

    My, admittedly slightly abstract point is that we shouldn't have a knee-jerk balk reaction to the concept of discriminating against a group - purely because it is a group that is considered sacrosanct and must not be criticised.  If the evidence proves that members of that minority group actually are more likely to cause trouble or exhibit behaviours that make the majority uncomfortable then it's up to the owners of that private business as to whether to exclude that group, in my opinion.

    Excluding people for membership of a group just because you don't like that group is not the same thing though - that's just plain old racism/sexism/trans/homophobia which is often 'justified' by the use of false evidence and misconceptions about that group.

    Jeez.... I gotta do some work FFS !!!   I get drawn into these threads and end up writing a bloody essay every time ! :lol: 
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • JayGeeJayGee Frets: 1254
    Sassafras said:
    axisus said:
    Sassafras said:
    I remember a thread not so long ago where lots of us were moaning about how awful gypsies and travellers were.
    So, is it OK for us to criticise them but not for a company that might've had bad experiences with them?
    You honestly can't see the difference between a specific bunch of unpleasant travellers and random human beings that have nothing on them other than a blacklisted surname???? Wow ...
    That's very patronising, I'm not a fuckin moron.
    Of course I can see the difference.
    I just wonder how we would handle the situation if we were running a place that had been trashed, possibly suffered physical attacks to our staff and customers, as well as financial loss.
    Pontins aren't advocating gassing or sterilising travellers, they're just safeguarding themselves from further trouble.
    Mrs JayGee works at a branch of a well known budget hotel chain. They have had issues ranging from low-level antisocial behaviour (raucous behaviour late at night, leaving rooms in an unusually messy state, not vacating rooms by the agreed checkout time, non-compliance with smoking restrictions, damage due to carelessness, etc, etc) through to outright criminality (threats of, or occasionally actual violence against staff or guests, sexual harassment of female staff members or guests, deliberate destruction of property, etc, etc).

    The incidence of those issues is significantly higher amongst some readily identifiable groups than others, particularly when group bookings for social/family events (e.g. weddings) are involved. As a result measures have been put in place (nothing as blunt as blacklisting by surname - things like limits/conditions on cash payments, ID requirements, additional requirements/restrictions on access to car parks for vans and/or large caravans, etc, etc) which make their establishments somewhat less attractive to those groups. And if that means (which, looking at the period over which those policies have been developed it demonstrably has) that my wife doesn’t end up having to do unexpected and unplanned shifts cleaning (literal) shit out of places where shit has no business being or coming home in tears after having to lock herself in the staff break room while the management try to get the police out to deal with the nastier incidents quite as often then I’m fine with it.

    It’s all very well saying that you shouldn’t prejudge a whole group on the behaviour of some individuals, but barring individuals, attempting to recover costs, and being willing to call the police really doesn’t help much when the same (really, really, really nasty) issues keep turning up again and again with representatives of that group...
    Don't ask me, I just play the damned thing...
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    Ah, discrimination against anyone with an Irish brogue.  Not a new topic.

    https://youtu.be/WYvw8MefblU 

    In response to @Emp_Fab’s comment - no, it’s not reasonable to discriminate against Irish Travellers on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave.  It’s against the law to do this, a clear breach of the Equalities Act.

    It is legal to exclude specific people or groups on the basis of previous conduct.  You can’t, however, refuse service on the broad basis of race or ethnicity.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24211
    edited March 2021
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11415
    edited March 2021
    Cols said:
    Ah, discrimination against anyone with an Irish brogue.  Not a new topic.

    https://youtu.be/WYvw8MefblU 

    In response to @Emp_Fab’s comment - no, it’s not reasonable to discriminate against Irish Travellers on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave.  It’s against the law to do this, a clear breach of the Equalities Act.

    It is legal to exclude specific people or groups on the basis of previous conduct.  You can’t, however, refuse service on the broad basis of race or ethnicity.

    That is the correct way to do it, but it might not be practical though.  The only way to do that would be provide names, ID, and photos of everyone in the group.  Anything less than that wouldn't work.  If I book a big family group, and we cause trouble, they can ban me from booking next time, but how are they going to stop my wife from booking, or my sister-in-law?

    They would have to ask for names and photo IDs of everyone who booked, and their whole group.  A lot of people wouldn't want to to that and they would lose a lot of business.

    The other alternative would be for them to use facial recogntion software, but that's not always reliable, and imagine the press headlines about Pontins using facial recognition software on punters.

    The correct solution is for the police to go after the ones who are behaving like this, and get them punished severely as a deterrent, but I'm not optimistic about that.  There was a recent article in the Evening Standard about a pregant woman who was mugged.  It was caught on CCTV, and apparently there were witnesses, but the CPS didn't take even take it to court.  If people are getting away with mugging, then the police aren't going to deal with this type of behaviour.

    There are other issues with Traveller communities as well.  My wife is a teacher, and they have children from traveller communities in school.  Some of them leave school and start working when they are 10 or 11.  They never go to secondary school.  Some of them don't even finish year 6 in primary school.

    It's difficult because I'm against too much state regulation, but somehow the authorities need to get a grip on these lifestyles.  Maybe it's some kind of unannounced inspections of traveller sites, for the sake of the kids if nothing else.  If the kids aren't in school, and they don't have suitable books and material for home schooling, then take the kids into care.  If the kids are out at work when they are 11, then take them into care.  If they find lead from church roofs, or copper stolen from railway signalling systems, then put them in jail.

    They would probably cry that it is discrimination against their lifestyle, but they should be subject to the law like everyone else.

    The authorities are not doing their job properly, so Pontins are trying to do something to protect themselves.  If Pontins don't try to deal with it, then they will lose customers, but the legal ways of addressing it will also lose them customers.  People won't want to go on holiday where there are extensive ID checks and it feels like a prison camp.  What Pontins are doing is definitely wrong, but they are in a lose-lose situation.
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 12258
    edited March 2021
    I saw two 70 odd Yr old traveller fellas scrapping on the ferry once. They were shit faced, some young monobrows were half heartedly trying to split it up but they were so pissed they could barely stand anyway, huge potato headed guys rolling about everywhere. Absolute carnage so it was. 
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    It probably is, but a lot do, and there's also Gay cake bakers (NGS) - that incident certainly was
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    Emp_Fab said:


    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    We got around that one many years ago by booking a hotel sub nom "The Convocation of Anglican Clergy" and turning up in ecclesiastical vestments.  Don't imagine anyone was fooled for an instant but as we kept the drunken antics strictly off site the management seemed to let it ride.  

    Good times.  Still have the tattoo, and the scars.
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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