Pontins 'undesirable guest list'

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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
    At the risk of sounding like a Lefty Liberal Latte Lapping Luvvie (I actually picked that term up from the BBC News comments section) perhaps everyone, including organisations, Political Parties and businesses should 'judge' people as individuals rather than by some meaningless check list?
    Just a thought.
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    edited March 2021
    AlexC said:
    At the risk of sounding like a Lefty Liberal Latte Lapping Luvvie (I actually picked that term up from the BBC News comments section) perhaps everyone, including organisations, Political Parties and businesses should 'judge' people as individuals rather than by some meaningless check list?
    Just a thought.
    Top marks (and a wiz lol (was conflicted)) for the alliteration!
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    edited March 2021
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    In short, yes.  Private businesses like pubs and clubs have the legal right to determine who can come onto their premises or not.  If someone attempts to enter without permission, they’re committing trespass and can be ejected.

    There are very limited circumstances where it’s not legal to bar someone.  The first is where 
    where it’s a club and the barred person is a member, in which case there’s a contractual relationship.  

    The second is where the decision to bar them is on the grounds of sex, race, disability, religion or sexual orientation.  This breaches Equality legislation.

    So you can bar Seamus O’Reilly, Paddy Flanagan and Micky Wallace for behaving like a pack of dicks.  But you can’t bar them for being Travellers.  



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  • NeillNeill Frets: 941
    Emp_Fab said:
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    I neither know nor care, but we have expressly excluded stags and hens from our establishment for years, and we are also very careful about school groups now.  It is all based on experience and my answer to anyone who queries whether it is legit is well if you had had a couple of really unpleasant - and expensive - experiences, what would you do?  There is also the fact that we are next door to a retirement/nursing home.  

    Though I wouldn't use as blunt a tool as surname blacklisting I do trust my instincts regarding phone and email enquiries and I would be very dubious about someone walking in off the street these days.  The last time I gave someone the benefit of the doubt resulted in a very unpleasant experience for another guest which could have ended very badly indeed.  If we were ever taken to task regarding our right to take in who we please I would simply close the business, it's that important to me.   
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    There's plenty of Travellers with English surnames and plenty of the settled population with Irish surnames.
    It's just Racism.
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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 22516
    I notice the name Fury isn't on that list, so presumably Pontins would welcome Tyson, Hughie, Peter and co with open arms?  Plenty of money to spend and I reckon they enjoy their food.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    and Billy Joe Saunders.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    I grew up in a caravan and moved between Essex and Cork a lot.
    People were no different to normal Irish or English people. 
    Good and Bad people in EVERY community.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413
    Cols said:
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    In short, yes.  Private businesses like pubs and clubs have the legal right to determine who can come onto their premises or not.  If someone attempts to enter without permission they’re committing trespass and can be ejected.

    There are very limited circumstances where it’s not legal to bar someone.  The first is where 
    where it’s a club and the barred person is a member, in which case there’s a contractual relationship.  

    The second is where the decision to bar them is on the grounds of sex, race, disability, religion or sexual orientation.  This breaches Equality legislation.

    So you can bar Seamus O’Reilly, Paddy Flanagan and Micky Wallace for behaving like a pack of dicks.  But you can’t bar them for being Travellers.  




    Are Travellers defined as a race?  Most of them seem to be white European in looks.  I know the traditional gypsies were Romany, but is that the case with the Travellers we are talking about?  Do Romany people have Irish surnames?

    I honestly don't know the answer to that.  I'm not trying to troll.

    This has got me thinking about how we define race.  What happens with someone from the West Country with a broad Zummerzet accent?  Is it racism to make jokes about their accent if you live 100 miles further East in the home counties?  Is it Geordieism to make jokes about Ant and Dec?  I would say no to both of those.

    For those of us who are white European in origin, is it right to break things down any further than White European?  I think there is an argument that Travellers are a (sub)culture rather than a race (if they are not of Romany origin).  It's not discrimination to ban subcultures.  If I decided to ban young men with hoodies, and their trousers around their ankles, nobody would bat an eyelid.

    At the same time, banning based on name is wrong.  If you allow that, then you give people free rein to ban Patels, or Singhs, which would definitely be racist.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    Romany's originally came from Northern India. Travellers came from Ireland.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    Pontins were banning people on Irish surnames - with the best will in the world that has to be defined as racist. 

    How race is viewed under UK law:

    In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality. For example, you may have Chinese national origins and be living in Britain with a British passport.

    Race also covers ethnic and racial groups. This means a group of people who all share the same protected characteristic of ethnicity or race. 

    A racial group can be made up of two or more distinct racial groups, for example black Britons, British Asians, British Sikhs, British Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers.

    You may be discriminated against because of one or more aspects of your race, for example people born in Britain to Jamaican parents could be discriminated against because they are British citizens, or because of their Jamaican national origins.

    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • DefaultMDefaultM Frets: 7271
    edited March 2021
    Why don't they just add an 'are you a gypsy' tick box when you apply for the holiday?

    Edit: bad idea, I forgot they can't read.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    I still can't.
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  • strtdvstrtdv Frets: 2356
    Emp_Fab said:
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    No it's not, because being on a stag/hen do isn't a protected characteristic, whereas ethnicity is.

    Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    DefaultM said:
    Why don't they just add an 'are you a gypsy' tick box when you apply for the holiday?

    Edit: bad idea, I forgot they can't read.
    This is exactly the kind of casual bigotry which becomes self-perpetuating.

    Sure, Travellers have low educational achievement.  But how motivated would you be to engage academically if you knew that you would face overwhelming discrimination in any kind of employment outside your own community?

    It seems that the travelling community is the last remaining one against which it’s socially acceptable to make sweeping assumptions.  You wouldn’t dream of posting “Oh no!  A (insert ethnic minority here) family has moved into our village!” on your local FB page.  Yet somehow it’s acceptable to react to travellers setting up camp nearby as if the Visigoths have just turned up at the gates of Rome.
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  • PhilW1PhilW1 Frets: 941
    So,what do Pontins do, turn a blind eye and ignore the fact that certain groups will run riot in their property, ruin other genuine holiday makers stays and ruin Pontins reputation (if they ever had one) or try and make a stand?
    I think it’s a lose lose for them.
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  • They're a private company. I'm told private companies can decide who they want and who they don't want on their private platforms.

    Bye!

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  • RobDaviesRobDavies Frets: 3062
    edited March 2021
    I DJ’d a traveller engagement party once - it was very entertaining. The fighting was great, and the young ladies didn’t wear much. 
    Some of the fellas in attendance even helped me move some of my gear out to the car park - without even being asked.  Unfortunately the silly billy’s put several thousand quids worth of lighting and PA into the wrong vehicle ... totally innocent I’m sure. 

    When I asked if they could put it in my car, they offered to sell it to me. So there was clearly some kind of mix up on my part and they definitely weren’t sly or thieving or dishonest, or anything like that at all. Oh no. And the lovely tradition of ‘grabbing’ (witnessed first hand by me) isn’t sexual assault either.  Oh no, definitely not. 

    Fortunately, the police were in attendance due to the aforementioned punch up, and I did get my gear back but ended up two hundred quid down as another ‘mix up’ meant that party organiser refused to pay me, and the cheeky chappy also threatened to cut my throat from ear to ear if I didn’t fuck off home immediately.  I reckon he thought I must be tired after such a tough gig and needed to go to bed for some rest. 

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16011
    ^ Love it ............so bloody true
    On a more serious note I have to agree about this grouping of people and prejudicial selected entry.
    I used to be in a minority group (about 50 years ago ) We were small ( in stature ) but every shop we were interested in had a big handwritten notice in the window ;
     SCHOOLCHILDREN  2 AT A TIME ONLY !
    Discriminating Bastards !
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    They're a private company. I'm told private companies can decide who they want and who they don't want on their private platforms.
    I’m sure I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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