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  • sixstringsuppliessixstringsupplies Frets: 429
    tFB Trader
    I think Joe Root taking 5 for 8 sums it up.

    A left arm dibbly dobbler (ok he is a decent bowler) but a left arm dibbly dobbler taking 11 wickets as an opening bowler...tells you all you need to know about the ball and the pitch.

    I'm gutted though, I absolutely adore watching test cricket, anywhere, anytime, my alarm is set. To have it over in 2 days is annoying. 

    Never mind lads, we'll host them in the summer for 5 games on total greentops. 
    For Modders, Makers, Players

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  • crunchman said:
    Ahmedabad? No, Ahmedawful. 

    Not always like this though....

    -I still think day-night Tests are a shitty gimmick and need to end. 

    -The measure of how crap this wicket is is that we have two of the best quick bowlers in the world on display and they're bowled 11 overs between them in a 5-day game.
    A good point.

    There have been some discussion of a lot of the dismissals all being to straight balls which didn't spin.

    Aside from the pitch being a poor one, a lot of the batting technique was unsatisfactory for both teams. 21/30 wickets were from straight balls.

    It's not as simple as that.  Some balls were turning big, while others went straight on.

    That was probably partly because of the pink ball.  It has a lot more lacquer on it than a conventional red ball.  If it lands on the seam, it's likely to grip and spin.  If it lands on the lacquer, it skids straight on - and probably more so than with a conventional ball.

    With a conventional ball, the surface of the ball that's been used and roughed up will grip more than a ball that is still covered in lacquer.  It's still likely to to turn - just not as much.  The variations in turn are likely to be less dramatic.  In this game, you had one ball turning dramatically, and the next not turning at all.  Batsmen were getting done by the straight ball because they were playing for the turn.

    Unless they can actually get a pink ball that behaves like a proper cricket ball, then I think @Heartfeltdawn is right and they should do away with day/night tests.  Either that, or with modern LED technology, it might be possible to light a ground so well that you could just play in whites with a proper ball without running up a ridiculous electricity bill.
    I'm in agreement, they had some analysis of Ben Foakes dismissal, when he'd set up for a ball that turned a lot then was out to one which didn't spin.  Simon Hughes did some great analysis of the pink ball's lacquer.

    But there was some very poor shot selection in there as well.

    I'm with Andy, Pink Ball test matches are a gimmick as the ball behaves completely different to the red ball.
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  • There have been some discussion of a lot of the dismissals all being to straight balls which didn't spin.

    It's one of my absolute pet hates because it's inaccurate and English commentators especially are atrocious at this "doesn't spin" thing. Weirdly Sunny Gavaskar is as well but he's a batsman and everyone knows batsmen aren't anywhere near as clever as bowlers. 

    *fishing*

    Axar bowling around the wicket: if you drew a line from middle stump to middle stump, and then drew a line from Axar's left hand at the point of release to the batting crease, then you could see that Axar is bowling at an angle into the right hander. If he is going to get successful LBW decisions in his favour, then he has to turn it away from the right hander in order to get that ball to straight along the line of the stumps. Think of it as being no different to Wasim Akram to Allan Lamb in the 1992 WC Final. Left arm around, a ball that pitches outside of off stump, and moves away from the straight line you could draw from point of ball release. 

    What Axar did so well was to figure out that you have to bowl quicker on this pitch to get the rewards. Leach also bowled quicker but Axar bowled a few balls going from 85kph to just under 100kph. That variation in pace alone will lead to more variations in turn. Some will skid, some will not. Some will turn and rip, some will not. He comfortably outbowled Ashwin who tried to do a bit too much with the ball at times whilst Axar dropped it on the spot and let the pitch do its work. 

    God, I'm making myself dream of playing again :)







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  • I think Joe Root taking 5 for 8 sums it up.

    A left arm dibbly dobbler (ok he is a decent bowler) but a left arm dibbly dobbler taking 11 wickets as an opening bowler...tells you all you need to know about the ball and the pitch.



    It tells you everything about the type of spin bowler who will wreak havoc on that wicket. Root has a lower arm than Leach and gets that ball more into the wicket. Root's closer to Axar than Leach in that regard. 

    One thing people have said: our batting in the first innings cost us. I don't think so. The crucial period of the whole game was the final two hours on day 1. India came into that session at 5/0 and ended it at 99/3. The five overs before dinner saw the variations in bounce from the new ball: this largely disappeared once the evening session kicked in. On a spinning track, Archer and Stokes were encouraged to bang it in. Release the pressure on the batsmen, increase the pressure on your sole outright spin bowler. That session was why we selected three outright seamers and that session showed us how wrong we got it. The swing disappeared, the up and down bounce disappeared, and the ball was harder to grip for the spinner compared to bowling in the day, as we saw this morning. 






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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Some interesting analysis here:


    If those stats are accurate then the the contrast between the Indian spinners and ours in terms of accuracy is pretty stark. Nearly 20 percent of Bess's deliveries were over-pitched as against less than 1 percent of Axar's.

    Wonder what the pitch will be like for the fourth Test, and who we'll play?

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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    Our spinners bowl too many deliveries that release the pressure on the batsmen.

    Simon Hughes wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about how DRS has effectively made the stumps bigger with the umpire's call margin, and how hawkeye has meant that the batsman can no longer just take a huge stride forward in the knowledge that no umpire would give him out LBW. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    scrumhalf said:
    Our spinners bowl too many deliveries that release the pressure on the batsmen.

    Simon Hughes wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about how DRS has effectively made the stumps bigger with the umpire's call margin, and how hawkeye has meant that the batsman can no longer just take a huge stride forward in the knowledge that no umpire would give him out LBW. 

    I think the umpire should only give it when he is absolutely certain though.  Someone like Dickie BIrd only used to give it when it was absolutely plumb.  To my mind that is a better approach.

    A lot of the ones that are given now are umpire's call where it is just clipping.  To my mind, the umpire shouldn't be giving those, but when he does, the batsman has no way to overturn it.  When the batsman does take a huge stride forward, it's normally going to be impossible for the umpire to be absolutely certain that it's going to hit the stumps.  In that case he should give not out rather than guess.  If Hawkeye has it just trimming the bails or clipping leg stump by a millimetre, then to my mind he shouldn't be giving it.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    Stuckfast said:
    Some interesting analysis here:


    If those stats are accurate then the the contrast between the Indian spinners and ours in terms of accuracy is pretty stark. Nearly 20 percent of Bess's deliveries were over-pitched as against less than 1 percent of Axar's.

    Wonder what the pitch will be like for the fourth Test, and who we'll play?

    That's a really interesting piece.

    1. Amount of turn per Test. I'm not sure I'd measure deviation in quite the same way. By using the vertical, I can't see how the author can make accurate comments over the amount of spin. Consider this: A left arm spinner bowling around the wicket could bowl wide on the crease, pitch it dead on the middle stump to middle stump line, get it to turn and hit middle stump dead on, and going by how I see the author calculating things, that would count as zero deviation. Think Leach to Rohit Sharma: zero deviation there? Not if you calculate the angle the ball is delivered from. 

    It should be reinforced that the first day at Chennai is not included in the data. In three Tests, day 1 at Chennai was easily the best day for batting and the amount of turn was low so the data is decidedly skewed by this. 

    2. Bounce 

    "The bounce has generally been consistent. Shooters have not been observed. The general variation evident in the plot below is explained by the differing amounts of overspin, pace, trajectory, flight and point of release (contrast, for instance, Patel’s high release with Nadeem or Bess or Moeen’s lower release). Some of the variation is also due to the age of the ball and the nature of the ball. The pink ball is built differently from the red one."

    Shooters in my experience tend to come from cracks. You do get the odd half tracker that dies (think Carl Hooper to Nasser Hussain) but the glory days of a cracked WACA pitch and Ian Bishop getting Aussie batsmen bowled at ankle height are the norm. On tracks where the ball bursts through the surface with some hardness underneath, you will get the balls that bounce and bounce. On this aspect, the data looks totally right. 

    This high release thing:  Axar Patel and Moeen Ali are within 1 cm of height. Murali Kartik already did an analysis of Moeen in this series and found his release point was actually higher than it was in 2016. Axar bowls with a roundarm action. His arms might be slightly longer than Moeen's but longer arms bowling round arm versus Moeen's arm which is right up vertical and not roundarm at all... they're pretty level. The rule of thumb: roundarm = more sidespin, higher arm = more overspin. The most famous example of roundarm legspin below. Sorry, Gatt :)

    https://i.imgur.com/7fkiIxN.png

    3. Length. 

    I've literally marked out a crease in the lounge with a tape measure measuring 6ft from the batting crease in order to figure out if bowling in this area is really considered 'overpitching' as the author states. Pish, I say. It's also relevant to say that balls that got wickets would be deemed as overpitched (think Ashwin's lovely flighted ball that got Stokes out) and that the slow bowler who has overpitched the most, namely the England skipper, got a MIchelle for naff all. It seems a very arbitrary measurement to me. 

    "The consequence of all this is evident in the rate of scoring. Ashwin has conceded 2.6 runs per over, Axar Patel 2.2 runs per over, and Nadeem 3.9. By comparison, Leach has gone for 3.2 runs per over, Moeen 3.7, Bess 3.7, and Root 3.2."

    The rate of scoring doesn't necessarily reflect worse bowling. Moeen 1st innings and Bess 2nd innings, yes. They were erratic. But you also have to watch the sides when they bat. India are far better at getting the singles and rotating the strike. We aren't and that impacts the scoring rate. 

    In fairness to the author, his subsequent post does look at the respective batting approaches. We don't cash in on shit as well, we don't survive as well, and we don't rotate as well. 

    https://cricketingview.substack.com/p/more-on-the-spinners-in-the-first






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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    scrumhalf said:
    Our spinners bowl too many deliveries that release the pressure on the batsmen.

    Simon Hughes wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about how DRS has effectively made the stumps bigger with the umpire's call margin, and how hawkeye has meant that the batsman can no longer just take a huge stride forward in the knowledge that no umpire would give him out LBW. 
    Not entirely true. The 2.5m rule kicks in. 

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/world-cup-2011-icc-tweaks-2-5-metre-drs-rule-for-consistency-504570

    So monster strides might save you. 

    But certainly playing from the crease is a lot harder for batsmen now with DRS. As a tall leggie in the 1990s, it was a rare umpire indeed who ever stuck the finger up when I appealed. One umpire in particular sticks in the memory bank. Bowled a googly to a right hander, he played back, got squared up and missed, and the ball lodged halfway up the stumps between his pads. I bellowed an appeal and got it turned down. Not out! Batsman laughed, reached down, and chucked the ball back to me. I gave the umpire a Paddington-esque stare to no avail. 

    Umpire was a good cricketer in his prime, Minor Counties level, nurdly batsman and offspinner. The spinners union didn't operate that day and neither did the family connection, for that umpire was my late grandfather! 



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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    crunchman said:

    A lot of the ones that are given now are umpire's call where it is just clipping.  To my mind, the umpire shouldn't be giving those, but when he does, the batsman has no way to overturn it.  When the batsman does take a huge stride forward, it's normally going to be impossible for the umpire to be absolutely certain that it's going to hit the stumps.  In that case he should give not out rather than guess.  If Hawkeye has it just trimming the bails or clipping leg stump by a millimetre, then to my mind he shouldn't be giving it.
    Never forget poor Trent Copeland in Sri Lanka. 





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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    scrumhalf said:
    Our spinners bowl too many deliveries that release the pressure on the batsmen.

    Simon Hughes wrote an interesting article in the Sunday Times about how DRS has effectively made the stumps bigger with the umpire's call margin, and how hawkeye has meant that the batsman can no longer just take a huge stride forward in the knowledge that no umpire would give him out LBW. 
    Not entirely true. The 2.5m rule kicks in. 

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/world-cup-2011-icc-tweaks-2-5-metre-drs-rule-for-consistency-504570

    So monster strides might save you. 

    But certainly playing from the crease is a lot harder for batsmen now with DRS. As a tall leggie in the 1990s, it was a rare umpire indeed who ever stuck the finger up when I appealed. One umpire in particular sticks in the memory bank. Bowled a googly to a right hander, he played back, got squared up and missed, and the ball lodged halfway up the stumps between his pads. I bellowed an appeal and got it turned down. Not out! Batsman laughed, reached down, and chucked the ball back to me. I gave the umpire a Paddington-esque stare to no avail. 

    Umpire was a good cricketer in his prime, Minor Counties level, nurdly batsman and offspinner. The spinners union didn't operate that day and neither did the family connection, for that umpire was my late grandfather! 

    Families seem to be hard on each other when umpiring, or have grudges.  The level I played at, most of the time the umpires were from the batting team.  There were very few LBWs given, but it was the same for both sides.  Nobody ever got given out on the front foot.  I was batting with our best batsman once, while his younger brother was umpiring.  He gave a bowler the charge (a long way down) and his brother gave him out LBW.  Either he had a grudge with his brother, or he never wanted to get roped into umpiring again!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    crunchman said:

    Families seem to be hard on each other when umpiring, or have grudges.  The level I played at, most of the time the umpires were from the batting team.  There were very few LBWs given, but it was the same for both sides.  Nobody ever got given out on the front foot.  I was batting with our best batsman once, while his younger brother was umpiring.  He gave a bowler the charge (a long way down) and his brother gave him out LBW.  Either he had a grudge with his brother, or he never wanted to get roped into umpiring again!

    My brother was a nightmare and we only ever played in three games together. First time we ever batted together, he came out on strike, I told him to play himself in and not do anything stupid. He taps it to very short midwicket and calls for the run. I turned my back on him. End of innings :)

    Two years later, we batted together. He ran me out without me facing a ball. Sod. 

    Year after that was the finest hour though. We were playing in a u-16 club game and the oppo had one chap in there I'd faced at youth county level. Lovely guy, he was on Somerset's books at the time and we ended up at uni together. I bowled like an absolute legend for no wickets and sod all runs, whilst my friend took the other bowlers apart. In the end, they brought my brother on. He'd given it the big mouth before the game, saying how he was going to outbowl me. 

    We were on the left-hand wicket as pictured below. That first and only over to my Somerset friend went 0 then 2 and then three consecutive balls dropped on leg stump ended up in the top area of the large tree at the top of the pavilion. I'd started giggling after the second six. The third didn't help matters. The last ball was a horrible full toss that was dispatched over the car park and I was forced to sit down on the outfield due to hysterics.

    We never played together after that.  







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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    edited March 2021
    Ashes bolter: 

    Australia gave Riley Meredith a T20 debut. 150kph, picked up Tim Seifert and then gets Kane Williamson LBW early doors. The guy is unfinished but damn he does have some pace. Reminds me of Kasprowicz with the way he bowls.



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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    Ashes bolter: 

    Australia gave Riley Meredith a T20 debut. 150kph, picked up Tim Seifert and then gets Kane Williamson LBW early doors. The guy is unfinished but damn he does have some pace. Reminds me of Kasprowicz with the way he bowls.

    The Aussie quick bowling is going to be good anyway.  Cummins is in his prime.  Starc and Hazlewood are not young, but they have 4 years on Stuart Broad.  They probably won't be declining too much yet.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    crunchman said:
    The Aussie quick bowling is going to be good anyway.  Cummins is in his prime.  Starc and Hazlewood are not young, but they have 4 years on Stuart Broad.  They probably won't be declining too much yet.
    They suffered against India through not having a rotation policy during a short rapid fire series and all the seamers were well cooked by the time that crucial last innings came around. Cummins and Hazlewood are steady quicks and there are people who could come in for them like Michael Neser.

    Starc's a bit more erratic but has that real "When he's hot, he's hot" ability. Meredith is a bit more in that realm. Raw but he's got some wheels to him. Ashton Agar's brother is similar. 

    Speaking of the Agars and the talk of sibling rivalry on the pitch, I hadn't seen this before. Ooooops. 





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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 14029
    tFB Trader
    A bit of a freaky dismissal for Pope and nearly a similar freaky dismissal for Lawrence

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Nothing freaky about an inadequate England batting performance sadly.
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 14029
    tFB Trader
    Stuckfast said:
    Nothing freaky about an inadequate England batting performance sadly.
    Yes getting to the point I stop watching this match - 1 bad innings okay, but the last 5 shows signs of a 'disease'
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    I guess we have to wait until India have batted to know for sure, but that doesn't look like a 205 all out pitch. Especially given that we basically picked eight batters.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096

    Team talk this morning: 

    "Hi Jack, Joe here again. You know that whole seam bowler heavy attack last Test? We've decided to forget that approach now that we've turned up at a wicket giving assistance to the seamers. This is what we're gonna do: pack the line up with batting, give you 200 to bowl with, make sure that our two seamers are the old guy and someone who has barely bowled all series and is currently suffering from the shits, and we're gonna pair you with that guy who bowled utter gash in the second innings of the Test we won, meaning we had to drop him and bring back the guy we had pretty much given up on and probably definitely nearly will give up on now.

    Any questions?"





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