Bands with keys...

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  • StratavariousStratavarious Frets: 3597
    edited April 2021
    I play the keys as well as guitar in my band.. often swapping mid song..  its easy to overcook it all playing together.  We have two guitars.. extra keys would be overkill.

    The points about finding the sonic space and not playing the bass or melody notes on keys are spot on. I did some special event gigs last Xmas and the keys player we got just dominated the mids and notes swamped the foldback.  You need to have a sound guy to make most of it IMHO.

    i use a Yamaha workstation synth with decent organ and piano sounds in it now but it is a bit heavy.  I am looking at a dual keys setup of a Behringer Deepmind 12 for arpeggiator and classic analog stuff and a Roland performance keyboard with organ, strings and piano

    Yamaha, Roland, Nord and others do performance keyboards that will cover most bands needs in one.
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  • NeillNeill Frets: 941
    I wouldn't do it.  In my cover band days I would guess we had done around a hundred songs and I can't think of one that really needed a keyboard player.   I agree that you risk sounding like the Wheeltappers and Shunters house band if you're not careful. Or maybe the dreadful Jools Holland thing where he can't resist shoving his nose in where the song really doesn't warrant it.

    If you must, surely most keyboard players have another, er, string to their bow?  I don't know many piano players who can't play any other instrument.  Being able to strum a guitar would be useful but if you find someone who can turn their hand to a flugel horn who knows it might open up a few doors. 


    BTW you have all heard the one that goes how many bass players does it take to change a light bulb..?
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    Oh Mainstage from Apple, just £25 or so and the sounds are really fat and authentic. My current rig is 2 x Macbook Pros with Mainstage, both get the same midi and both have same patches set, ones just there for redundancy. You can set your controllers up to control just about anything so although it's a software setup you're not doing much software wise. Runs on old hardware so one of the cheapest pro sounding rigs to gig with.  
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • TeleMasterTeleMaster Frets: 10103
    edited April 2021
    You don’t think songs that have keys in them on the original and live recordings ultimately need keys? You can do without them but let’s say you’re doing Mr Brightside and you have the synth parts down, that’ll surely only enhance that song. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    Most bands add a keyboard player to bolster the live sound at some point, Stereophonics, Manic street preachers, Kings of Leon, Foo Fighters, Muse etc ... even Greenday had a bit off stage when I saw them. 

    There is an image conjured up of somebody putting cheesy hammond over every song but proper modern keys players don't do that, some are the parts aren't even notes, they are subtle sound effects and atmosphere. 


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    If you find a decent keyboard player who understands playing in a band there is hardly anything a regular pub band plays they can't contribute to.

    Especially if you tweak your set a bit with that in mind.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    For a guitarist the question is always “what are you going to give up to give the keys space?”. In a single guitar band the guitar will occupy a vast amount of the audio spectrum. It will have a fatter tone. It will play more notes in chords to fill things out. It will play riffs and motifs. When you add keys the guitar needs to give up audio space to the keys, play partial chords rather than the full six strings, and leave many motifs to the keys. 

    Examples: in a guitar-only band I used humbuckers, and a synth pedal, but that’s another story. When we added simple keys I switched to a Telecaster, but still carried the song. When we switched to a competent keyboard player, with more than three fingers, I had to re-think the guitar parts. Some songs I barely play on now.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • paulmapp8306paulmapp8306 Frets: 829
    edited April 2021
    As I'm that "competent" (cough) keys player in rolands band....often the song dictates.  There can be no room for egos with a full frequency spectrum of keys and guitar.  I appreciate the space he hives me when needed as much as I try to give him the space when that suits more.

    Some of the things we do have limited guitars in the originals, like dua lipa and Kylie stuff.  Others have limited keys like Queen and pretenders.    Others have both pretty prominent like maroon 5 and sissor sisters.    

    It's all about balance in song choices, and knowing when to play loud and/or full when to play quiet and/or sparse and when to just sing or clap....for both keys and guitar players.
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  • paulmapp8306paulmapp8306 Frets: 829
    edited April 2021
    I play the keys as well as guitar in my band.. often swapping mid song..  its easy to overcook it all playing together.  We have two guitars.. extra keys would be overkill.

    The points about finding the sonic space and not playing the bass or melody notes on keys are spot on. I did some special event gigs last Xmas and the keys player we got just dominated the mids and notes swamped the foldback.  You need to have a sound guy to make most of it IMHO.

    i use a Yamaha workstation synth with decent organ and piano sounds in it now but it is a bit heavy.  I am looking at a dual keys setup of a Behringer Deepmind 12 for arpeggiator and classic analog stuff and a Roland performance keyboard with organ, strings and piano

    Yamaha, Roland, Nord and others do performance keyboards that will cover most bands needs in one.
    Plenty of options.   i use a Roland RD2000 for piano based stuff, a Roland Fantom 7 for orchestral and some synth parts.   I use a legand organ module, a virus Ti2 and a Peak on a top shelf for real synthy stuff.  

    I do  have a deep mind (desktop) and an argon 8 at home as well, but neither has made the live rig.   The Deep mind might replace the virus at some point live.

    It's probably overkill for one project but my 80s thing needs all those synth options.
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  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1373
    I dunno. Ask Dave Grohl
    An official Foo liked guitarist since 2024
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  • Rowby1Rowby1 Frets: 1258
    It’s about serving the song again. Drummers who play the song and not the drums are great. Same with keyboard players. Same with guitar players.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    I'm currently going through this with our singer, as after seven years gigging together she's suddenly remembered she can play the piano (and she really can), but I'm still having to instigate a glare-based training programme to get her the shut the hell up.

    I've played with plenty of pro keys players who are a joy and an asset to a band, but amateur keys players tend to just ruin everything by pounding away with all ten fingers all the bloody time.

    It's the age old question of letting school instruments into a rock 'n' roll band. 
    I've played in bands where the guitar, bass and drums are thundering away while the three brass guys are counting 30 bars of rests while staring at bits of paper on the floor. 

    "We just want 'baaa-do-bap!' after the first line of the chorus, can't you bloody feel it without counting it?!"
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  • Rowby1Rowby1 Frets: 1258
    p90fool said:

    "We just want 'baaa-do-bap!' after the first line of the chorus, can't you bloody feel it without counting it?!"
    I’ve done a lot of stuff with brass band types over the last few years. They seem to fall into two camps. 

    One group who have to count 30 bars of rest between brass stabs which are really obvious if they bothered to learn the song. Working with that type has improved my ability to read music no end.....I can now tell when they’re playing it as written......which they’ll do even when what’s written in obviously wrong!!

    The other type know how to improvise too, but they just won’t shut up!! 

    There are a few exceptions :)
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Keys can be great, but avoid those players that are used to accompanying themselves with both hands on the keyboard.
    It requires both guitarist and keyboard player to learn to keep out of each others way, the mid heavy guitar tone of yore can help. Let the bass player handle the low end and then make the arrangement work. Do you not play guitar if it's a keyboard song? You probably strum away anyway, Joe public just like to hear thier favourite song and the arrangement is less important to them than it is to you.


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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    Rowby1 said:
    It’s about serving the song again. Drummers who play the song and not the drums are great. Same with keyboard players. Same with guitar players.
    I can't remember the track, but there's a King Crimson tune from the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford era where Bruford doesn't play on it but has a writing credit. According to Fripp, that was because Bruford had the sense to recognise his part for this was to shut up. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I suppose it depends on what style of music is played but generally for our sets of covers we basically play exactly whats on the record so there's not really any arrangement issues .. I play the guitar part that's on the record, keyboard player will do the keys parts. Quite often when you really listen to something there's more keys on there than you think. These parts tend to be panned to steer clear of the vocal so flipping the phase on one channel of the stereo Wav will expose them. 

    Also Keys can be used to add better backing vocals. Any non time based backing vox oohs and Ahhs are easily sampled and triggered ..... if your drummer can play to a preset BPM ... doesn't have to be on a click but needs to keep on the right BPM then there's literally nothing you can't do with a good keys player and a workstation. 


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • paulmapp8306paulmapp8306 Frets: 829
    edited May 2021
    As Danny says - it helps if you choose material that has both keys and guitar in it - then you can learn the correct parts.

    The problems come if you get a piano player who learns the correct part but adds the left hand if there isnt one.  Or synth players used to being on their own that might play 5 or 6 notes in a pad (the main chord plus a couple of low octaves) to fill it out where its not needed with a full band.... Or if you make material that has no keys as most player will try and find something to do.

    We do 3 that didnt have keys on originally (or some version of at least)- and thats it.

    Of those 3, Crazy little thing gets a piano - but only because without it and with only 1 guitar the song looses energy when the solo and little flicks come in.   Whats up gets a slow, QUIET string/pad underneath everything else  just to provide a sonic base to build on - which again stops it from feeling it lacks fullness compared to the rest of the material.  Faith doesnt get any keys - because (apart from the intro that we dont do) there isnt any - and theres nothing suitable that wouldnt ruin the song.... It DOES need extra percussion - so thats tambourine and BV duties for me that song.

    I play in another project - and we play happy hour - again no keys bar a tubular bell run in the middle.   I get to sing that one.
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited May 2021
    slacker said:
    One of the 'best' players I have worked with started on a mono synth and could just about play chords. It fitted in with what the rest of us were doing.
    How do you play chords on a mono synth? I've been trying for ages, and I still only get the sound of a single note 
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • TeleMasterTeleMaster Frets: 10103
    edited May 2021
    Thanks. I’ve got a fair amount to think about and assess when/if this person does join. They may or may not be good enough/suitable, but I think it’s clear we probably want to go with keys in any case. 

    I think with the mono synth the person probably played broken chords. 
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  • slackerslacker Frets: 2216
    edited May 2021
    I take the mono synthesis comments. They bought a real keyboard later. The point was that they started from playing one finger not grade 8 piano. 

    I played in bands with classically trained pianists and all but one were useless in a band.


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