This has probably been asked before but nothing quite right came up on a search. We're a 7 piece band with two guitars, drums, bass and 3 singers out front (2 girls, 1 bloke). The vocals and bass all go through a Behringer X-Air and then into two DXR10s out front. I also mic my Cornell just to keep stage volumes down but nothing drastic. I do have a DXS12 sub which comes out for bigger venues.
Our consistent problem is that we play in small venues (50-100 people) with very little room. Last night, I had to turn 90deg. and stick my guitar neck between two of the singers, whilst our bass man ended up with a long lead and blocked the fire escape. I know you'll probably just tell me that a 3 -piece is more than ample but, for various reasons, that ain't going to happen.
The main issue we regularly have is feedback from the FOH speakers when we try to get anywhere near loud. We have some old Wharfdale monitors which do the job (just) but I can't get the DXRs to kick much volume out until I get feedback - typically at around 800Hz and between 2.5-3 kHz. The singers are using 2 SM58s and a 57 with a pop shield. My gut feeling is that, because the FOH speakers are literally 2 feet forward from the singers, we need very directional mics which can blank out all the unwanted bits.
I've looked at plenty of Youtube videos on the Behringer site as well as a good look at Mark Baker's excellent book but improvements have been minimal. I've cut the reverb basically to zero which, again, has helped - but not fixed it. At the moment , the speakers are on stands which put the bottom of the cab at about shoulder height. Is it worth moving them down? We rarely have any opportunity to go up.
If anyone has any suggestions for mics - or any other helpful hints - they would be very welcome.
TIA,
Dick
Comments
Caveat. I don’t class myself as a Live Sound Engineer but I do the ‘mixing from the stage’ for my bands. I can’t give you any magic fixes but here are my thoughts / tips. I’m also using an XR-18 and DXR’s (12’s in my case). One of my bands is a 5 piece with female lead vocals and myself on backing vox.
Mic wise we have SM58 and I’m using a Sennheiser e845 – I’ve never felt the need for anything more directional. What sort of gain settings do you have? Three vocalists suggests lead + 2 backing singers? Are the mics all on stands and are the backing singers stepping away from their mics when not singing?
Cut all the frequencies from the mic that you don’t need for vocals, cut even more from the monitors (you need to be able to hear yourself to pitch, you don’t need HiFi) and only put through what you absolutely need to hear in terms of other instruments. I’ve moved to in ears, as has the lead singer in one of my bands, which has really helped.
The 5 piece band had its first gig a week or so ago. For the last practice we moved from our regular practice room to the biggest rehearsal room that we could find so that we could set up as per on stage. It also allowed us to do a lengthy sound check and then store the settings on the XR-18. We still sound checked at the venue but we were able to do this very quickly. The sound was great both on stage and FOH but it was a good sounding stage with lots of space which I think made a huge difference. I’m very familiar with the types of set up that you describe and they do make life very difficult.
Real drums to compete with or eKit? It is hard to keep up with real drums in a small space with low ceiling. We always go electronic if a squeeze. Takes the pressure off needing high volume.
Things got better when more of us moved to IEMs as monitors just contributed to more stage volume/feedback.
Ironically the smaller the gig you more you mic the drums
Mic's with a tighter pattern like the Senn 945 have a better off axis rejection but require the singer to be right on the mic all the time, otherwise the signal level will drift a fair bit. So I'm not sure it will help a lot.
All you can do is keep the drums low as possible and the backline. Don't use wedges, use IEM's. Get the FOH speakers far enough forward to be in the vocal mics dead zone
High pass everything, even though those little speakers can't produce low frequencies they still absorb them and that creates stresss and heat. Try hi passing the vocals at 130Hz for the girls and a little lower for the male. Cut some low mid between 250 and 550Hz. Then low pass at 11K and see what you have.
For effects try delay lowish in the mix rather than verb and switch it off between songs with a footswitch. Be careful with compression, try a 3:1 but with a high threshold so it's doing nothing until there's a high level of vocal.
Make sure that your singers are holding their mics properly, and not getting their hands too close to the mesh.
Download a spectrum analyser app on your phone, and then take a bit of time before you start to cut the frequencies that are feeding back.
Generally for us the main singer's mic is the culprit so I turn that up loud enough to get some feedback and hold the phone near one of the speakers.. and then cut the frequencies (and the one's next to it a little bit) that shows spiking on the app for the FOH. Then do the same for the monitors.
you might get a few honks from the punters as in pubs there are people who are there when you're setting up.. but it only should take a couple of minutes to do and does make a difference.
There is a balance though so be conservative with cutting the frequency bands.
To be honest I wouldn’t be looking at changing mics the SM58 unless it’s got a fault, is perfectly good enough for what you describe. It’s getting to grips with the EQ which is going to sort your problems. And also turn off any compressor s you have on the vocals to begin with , a badly set compressor is a major source of feedback.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
His words on it were that him and his colleagues were astonished by how good it was when a singer turned up with Also one of his colleagues does beta testing for mics, and had said it had stood up extremely well when A/B'd with very expensive mics..
One of the bands I'm in, the singer bought one and there was a big difference in how she sounded with this than before (SM58, E945's etc). It just sounded a lot more fuller and rounder sound wise.
I've ordered one for myself although I sing like a hoover..
If there are long periods within the song where they don’t sing then you could get a couple of mic mute pedals (Orchid Electronics do an excellent one) so that the singers can mute and unmute their own mics.