UK’s early response worst public health failure ever

What's Hot
cruxiformcruxiform Frets: 2026
edited October 12 in Coronavirus
Covid: UK's early response worst public health failure ever, MPs say https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58876089

I agree. An absolute shambles from the start. 

138k deaths as of today, 4th in the world. 
1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 5reaction image Wisdom
«13456789

Comments

  • rze99rze99 Frets: 1169
    World beating. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • Faillng on vaccination too.. 6th or 7th in Europe now.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 9576
    Yep, and still no teeth in the opposition, should be like taking candy from a baby ffs.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 8reaction image Wisdom
  • I know it’s upsetting and frustrating. Long covid has changed my life for 18 months now and a fit, healthy mate of mine still can’t walk more than the 15 yards to his front gate each day.

    A few points however….hopefully factual and constructive and not political (though I agree absolutely about us needing stronger opposition)…

    We’re 8th in the world death ranking according to the BBC, not 4th (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51235105), but if you listen to the podcast “More Or Less” (a factual analysis of data that’s been correcting misinformation for 20 years) the data is unreliable because so many countries are deliberately under-reporting Covid.

    More Or Less last year estimated that c30,000 deaths could have been prevented if we’d locked down sooner first time round. However, they found that probably the main reason we didn’t lock down sooner was that the statisticians advising SAGE and the government on forecast case levels decided to believe the Chinese data that cases were doubling every 5+ days rather than the Italian data that showed it was doubling every 2-3 days. Massive consequences from a single judgement call by statisticians.

    I volunteer at our vaccination centre. The reason we’re slipping down the rankings on vaccines is that a few months ago demand for vaccines fell off a cliff. There’s loads of vaccine available and ten times the capacity to administer it than there are people coming forward. We believe it’s due to folk believing anti-vax stuff on social media, but we don’t have evidence to prove the impact. We do get a fair few folk deciding they want to go on holiday and turning up demanding a 1st and 2nd jab within a few days of each other just so they can go abroad and becoming abusive and hostile to volunteers and NHS staff when they’re told they can’t have a second dose too soon.

    More or Less really is worth a listen.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 10reaction image Wisdom
  • munckeemunckee Frets: 8543
    edited October 13
    I think the report highlights fairly realistically the things that went right and the things that went wrong. 

    We closed the borders too slowly I think was our biggest mistake. I think locking down is difficult, we were a bit late but not much and remembering  the time the public were not taking Covid too seriously. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • FastEddieFastEddie Frets: 322
    @YorkieBarre Sorry to hear you've been hit by this. 

    A good piece in the news last week shows that lockdowns don't work in the longer term. Sweden have rebounded best and New Zealand and Australia are poised to really struggle due to a lack of natural immunity.

    Project Veritas in the USA has blown away the veil of spin about the vaccines and immunity. It shows how governments have and are lying to us to try and force us to get a vaccine. Have a look on youtube and Rumble. They show pharma scientists admitting the lies they are telling.

    I'm pro choice of vaccines and find the forced vaccination mandates disturbing. There is a real worry that the increased powers governments have been given will be extended indefinitely and tightened further.  The USA and other left wing governments are loving this. 

    The next wave will be flu as the normal natural immunity has been greatly weakened. 

    Nature is always trying to knock us over, that's the way things are. It's an ongoing battle. Authoritarian mandates are terrifying and will only get tighter.

    Risk is something you cannot eliminate, nor should it. Manage it, yes, but look at New Zealand and Aus, both are now virtually police states because of this. Canada not far behind.

    We need to keep our freedoms and accept that nature is a powerful beast. Live with it, but you can't beat it (especially when it's been given more power by the US and China!).
    If I had talent, I'd be talented.
    Persistent and inconsistent guitar player.
    A lefty, hence a fog of permanent frustration

    Not enough guitars, pedals, and cricket bats.
    USA Deluxe Strat - Martyn Booth Special - Electromatic
    FX Plex - Cornell Romany
    5reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 5reaction image Wisdom
  • siremoonsiremoon Frets: 1170
    edited October 13
    Faillng on vaccination too.. 6th or 7th in Europe now.
    Come back to us when you've broken that down by countries that place day to day restrictions we don't on people without a vaccine passport.  If we had introduced vaccine passports for many day to day things then our rates would undoubtedly be higher but no doubt many of those currently crowing over the drop off in our rates would have complained about such a measure too.   
    “He is like a man with a fork in a world of soup.” - Noel Gallagher
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • axisusaxisus Frets: 21391
    @YorkieBarre ;

    Good post. Yes, it has been a disaster on many levels, but there is some balancing up to do (not that I'm on the side of the Govt). We do need an intelligent look at the evidence rather than chest beating. I was hearing people on the radio yesterday twisting details to fit their own agendas. 


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 8105
    siremoon said:
    Faillng on vaccination too.. 6th or 7th in Europe now.
    Come back to us when you've broken that down by countries that place day to day restrictions we don't on people without a vaccine passport.  If we had introduced vaccine passports for many day to day things then our rates would undoubtedly be higher but no doubt many of those currently crowing over the drop off in our rates would have complained about such a measure too.   

    If people choose not to get a vaccine, that's their choice.  It's not a sensible choice, but it's theirs to make.

    It is wrong to start mandating medical treatment and giving the state a say.  This year it might be mandatory vaccines, but next year it might be some other thing they make mandatory.  I'm not saying it's likely to happen here any time soon, but it's a step on the road to what we have seen in China with forced abortions.  We should not be giving up any freedoms.

    There are also people with genuine objections of conscience.  A lot of the vaccines are made or tested using tissues from aborted babies.  I've chosen to have the vaccine but there are people in my church who won't have it because of that.

    On the other hand, I work with a fully paid up tin foil hat nutter who thinks the sun shines out of David Icke's bottom.  She refuses to get vaccinated.  In the early days she was on board the "it's caused by 5G" bandwagon.  Given that she has a physics degree, she really ought to know better.

    Regarding the issue of public health failure, we have yet to see the long term damage caused by the lockdowns.  We are already seeing deaths from non-Covid issues at a higher level than normal.  With the funding constraints on the health service because we will have taken on a trillion pounds of extra debt, there are going to be extra deaths for decades to come.  They will probably end up being more than the lives we saved through the lockdowns - definitely for the second and third lockdowns.

    If we had locked down earlier, we would just be in the situation that NZ and Australia find themselves in with extreme lockdowns and no natural immunity.  It's easy to say with hindsight that locking down earlier would have bought more time for a vaccine, but at the time, there was no guarantee of an effective vaccine in a reasonable time frame.  I don't think there had ever been a widespread rollout of a successful vaccine against any Coronavirus.  A lot of experts were saying that a vaccine could be 18 months away, and there was a possibility of it being longer than that, or never.

    The vaccines ended up being developed far faster than anyone thought, but nobody could be sure of that at the time, and building up natural immunity in the young and healthy was the right response at the time.

    It's too early to be judging everything while things are still ongoing, but I suspect that people looking back in 10 years time will have a different view, and it's likely that Sweden will come out of this looking a lot better than most.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 6reaction image Wisdom
  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 9916
    I know it’s upsetting and frustrating. Long covid has changed my life for 18 months now and a fit, healthy mate of mine still can’t walk more than the 15 yards to his front gate each day.

    A few points however….hopefully factual and constructive and not political (though I agree absolutely about us needing stronger opposition)…

    We’re 8th in the world death ranking according to the BBC, not 4th (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51235105), but if you listen to the podcast “More Or Less” (a factual analysis of data that’s been correcting misinformation for 20 years) the data is unreliable because so many countries are deliberately under-reporting Covid.

    More Or Less last year estimated that c30,000 deaths could have been prevented if we’d locked down sooner first time round. However, they found that probably the main reason we didn’t lock down sooner was that the statisticians advising SAGE and the government on forecast case levels decided to believe the Chinese data that cases were doubling every 5+ days rather than the Italian data that showed it was doubling every 2-3 days. Massive consequences from a single judgement call by statisticians.

    I volunteer at our vaccination centre. The reason we’re slipping down the rankings on vaccines is that a few months ago demand for vaccines fell off a cliff. There’s loads of vaccine available and ten times the capacity to administer it than there are people coming forward. We believe it’s due to folk believing anti-vax stuff on social media, but we don’t have evidence to prove the impact. We do get a fair few folk deciding they want to go on holiday and turning up demanding a 1st and 2nd jab within a few days of each other just so they can go abroad and becoming abusive and hostile to volunteers and NHS staff when they’re told they can’t have a second dose too soon.

    More or Less really is worth a listen.
    +1 for More or less

    Also - bear in mind other countries are vaccinating children, probably the major difference in the figures is caused by that. I think we have about 4m-5m adults refusing the jab, mostly young, but there are 13.5m under 17 in the UK
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 9916
    munckee said:
    I think the report highlights fairly realistically the things that went right and the things that went wrong. 

    We closed the borders too slowly I think was our biggest mistake. I think locking down is difficult, we were a bit late but not much and remembering  the time the public were not taking Covid too seriously. 
    the virus was widespread in the UK before any country in the west was locking down borders

    Some countries did not lock down, but changed their behaviour instead, so I'm blaming people too, not just the government. Those supermarket panics in March 2020 must have done a good job of spreading covid for a start
      
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 9916
    crunchman said:
    siremoon said:
    Faillng on vaccination too.. 6th or 7th in Europe now.
    Come back to us when you've broken that down by countries that place day to day restrictions we don't on people without a vaccine passport.  If we had introduced vaccine passports for many day to day things then our rates would undoubtedly be higher but no doubt many of those currently crowing over the drop off in our rates would have complained about such a measure too.   

    If people choose not to get a vaccine, that's their choice.  It's not a sensible choice, but it's theirs to make.

    It is wrong to start mandating medical treatment and giving the state a say.  This year it might be mandatory vaccines, but next year it might be some other thing they make mandatory.  I'm not saying it's likely to happen here any time soon, but it's a step on the road to what we have seen in China with forced abortions.  We should not be giving up any freedoms.

    There are also people with genuine objections of conscience.  A lot of the vaccines are made or tested using tissues from aborted babies.  I've chosen to have the vaccine but there are people in my church who won't have it because of that.

    On the other hand, I work with a fully paid up tin foil hat nutter who thinks the sun shines out of David Icke's bottom.  She refuses to get vaccinated.  In the early days she was on board the "it's caused by 5G" bandwagon.  Given that she has a physics degree, she really ought to know better.

    Regarding the issue of public health failure, we have yet to see the long term damage caused by the lockdowns.  We are already seeing deaths from non-Covid issues at a higher level than normal.  With the funding constraints on the health service because we will have taken on a trillion pounds of extra debt, there are going to be extra deaths for decades to come.  They will probably end up being more than the lives we saved through the lockdowns - definitely for the second and third lockdowns.

    If we had locked down earlier, we would just be in the situation that NZ and Australia find themselves in with extreme lockdowns and no natural immunity.  It's easy to say with hindsight that locking down earlier would have bought more time for a vaccine, but at the time, there was no guarantee of an effective vaccine in a reasonable time frame.  I don't think there had ever been a widespread rollout of a successful vaccine against any Coronavirus.  A lot of experts were saying that a vaccine could be 18 months away, and there was a possibility of it being longer than that, or never.

    The vaccines ended up being developed far faster than anyone thought, but nobody could be sure of that at the time, and building up natural immunity in the young and healthy was the right response at the time.

    It's too early to be judging everything while things are still ongoing, but I suspect that people looking back in 10 years time will have a different view, and it's likely that Sweden will come out of this looking a lot better than most.
    +1 for Sweden

    soem info by the way:
    COVID-19 vaccines and aborted fetuses – FactCheckNI

    Summary

      • No COVID-19 vaccine contains cells from aborted fetuses. 
      • A replica cell line from a fetus aborted in 1973 was used to develop the AstraZeneca/Oxford University vaccine. However, the vaccine itself does not contain fetal cells. 
      • New mRNA vaccines, such as those being developed by Pfizer and Moderna, are synthetic vaccines, sequenced on a computer in a lab, and do not use fetal cell lines in their production.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • chris78chris78 Frets: 5207
    siremoon said:
    Faillng on vaccination too.. 6th or 7th in Europe now.
    Come back to us when you've broken that down by countries that place day to day restrictions we don't on people without a vaccine passport.  If we had introduced vaccine passports for many day to day things then our rates would undoubtedly be higher but no doubt many of those currently crowing over the drop off in our rates would have complained about such a measure too.   
    I think what you’re trying to say is that if we’d coerced people and introduced medical apartheid, we’d have a higher vaccination rate.

    I think there’s evidence this isn’t the case. The more shrill we’ve become about people having vaccines (which by the way is absolutely the right thing to do) the more people have dug their heels in.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • chris78chris78 Frets: 5207
    Already been covered elsewhere but way too early to judge our response when the likes of Sweden are crashing down the league tables and we’re stubbornly high, despite lockdowns. We’re also suffering from more colds, more flu, more respiratory diseases caused by lockdown and a lack of immunity.
    The funny thing about the report is it complains of “groupthink” and then produces a report with no dissenting voices and a media desperate to push the “if only we’d locked down sooner” narrative. If that isn’t groupthink, I’ve no idea what is.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • rze99rze99 Frets: 1169
    I know it’s upsetting and frustrating. Long covid has changed my life for 18 months now and a fit, healthy mate of mine still can’t walk more than the 15 yards to his front gate each day.

    A few points however….hopefully factual and constructive and not political (though I agree absolutely about us needing stronger opposition)…

    We’re 8th in the world death ranking according to the BBC, not 4th (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51235105), but if you listen to the podcast “More Or Less” (a factual analysis of data that’s been correcting misinformation for 20 years) the data is unreliable because so many countries are deliberately under-reporting Covid.

    More Or Less last year estimated that c30,000 deaths could have been prevented if we’d locked down sooner first time round. However, they found that probably the main reason we didn’t lock down sooner was that the statisticians advising SAGE and the government on forecast case levels decided to believe the Chinese data that cases were doubling every 5+ days rather than the Italian data that showed it was doubling every 2-3 days. Massive consequences from a single judgement call by statisticians.

    I volunteer at our vaccination centre. The reason we’re slipping down the rankings on vaccines is that a few months ago demand for vaccines fell off a cliff. There’s loads of vaccine available and ten times the capacity to administer it than there are people coming forward. We believe it’s due to folk believing anti-vax stuff on social media, but we don’t have evidence to prove the impact. We do get a fair few folk deciding they want to go on holiday and turning up demanding a 1st and 2nd jab within a few days of each other just so they can go abroad and becoming abusive and hostile to volunteers and NHS staff when they’re told they can’t have a second dose too soon.

    More or Less really is worth a listen.
    I wish more people would follow this show.

    It's one of the very few things I follow and trust.

    Quit reading what your friends are forwarding and liking on Facebook as well - evil lies being peddled everywhere and some made by foreign powers to destabilize democracies.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 6965
    edited October 13
    This might be a naive question, but for those saying that Australia and NZ are struggling due to low natural immunity - will their long term effect be any worse than our death figures and effects to date? With a lot of the world (at least places from where people might travel to Aus or NZ) taking up vaccinations, presumably there's less risk of it wreaking the same havoc
    www.pianomatt.co.uk - Wedding and Event Pianist in the West Midlands
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • DavidRDavidR Frets: 156
    edited October 13
    As ever with Covid it's best to try and look at the events of the last 2y from a non-political perspective. How have we done in the UK?

    In my view things got back to normal about July for the majority of people in the UK. So March 2020 to July 2021, approx. 16 months of the economy, peoples lives and human relationships having been stifled by an epidemic of a deadly disease. After a shaky start, we zoomed ahead with vaccination thanks to having developed the Astra-Zeneca vaccine, (which remains the vaccine with the greatest global reach of any vaccine, now being used by 175 countries worldwide) and a fantastic national effort not seen since the 2nd WW. Along the way the UK also discovered the beneficial effects of Dexamethasone in an entirely counter-intuitive piece of research done in a UK clinical trial.

    As so often happens in the UK, after our lead, many first world countries are doing better than us on the vaccination front. Not some though. As of today neither Germany nor the US have as many fully immunised people as a percentage of population. Also, there are 195countries in the world, and as of today only 14 of them have given more vaccines when measured by "doses administered per 100 people".

    Deaths? UK deaths per million population? UK so far 2,058. France 1,665. Germany 1,135. Spain 1,844. Brazil 2,849. Italy 2,178. USA 2,172. So we're not brilliant. Data quality will vary from country to country.

    Economy? The most difficult area to keep clear of politics and there are huge vested interests now trying to link progress, or the lack of it, with the management of Covid - plus Brexit. As, ever these tend to be along recently traditional lines. But the UK GDP has grown 23.6% YOY. Germany 9.4%. France 18.7%. USA 12.2% and unemplyment in the UK is 4,5%. Germany 3.6%. France 8.0%. (EU as a whole 7.5%). USA 4.8%. 

    I think the man from Mars - looking around our World - would think that the UK had done quite well! Not brilliantly but well.

    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • FastEddieFastEddie Frets: 322
    This might be a naive question, but for those saying that Australia and NZ are struggling due to low natural immunity - will their long term effect be any worse than our death figures and effects to date? With a lot of the world (at least places from where people might travel to Aus or NZ) taking up vaccinations, presumably there's less risk of it wreaking the same havoc
    If you think that many of the 'uncontacted' tribes in the Amazon would be wiped out by the common cold or something simple it raises an eyebrow.

    That is extreme but without immunity NZ and Aus will have moved toward that outcome. Not all the way of course, but toward it.
    It also shows just how nasty a left wing government can be to their citizens. People in hospital with injuries from beatings by the Aus police, bs arrests and fines for not wearing a mask - pretty pointless.

    Big pharma knows that natural immunity is by far the best (Project Veritas getting their scientists talking off the record).

    The effect is mental health, freedom, but also physical as the next strain could be devastating. 
    If I had talent, I'd be talented.
    Persistent and inconsistent guitar player.
    A lefty, hence a fog of permanent frustration

    Not enough guitars, pedals, and cricket bats.
    USA Deluxe Strat - Martyn Booth Special - Electromatic
    FX Plex - Cornell Romany
    4reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • FastEddieFastEddie Frets: 322
    DavidR said:


    Deaths? UK deaths per million population? UK so far 2,058. France 1,665. Germany 1,135. Spain 1,844. Brazil 2,849. Italy 2,178. USA 2,172. So we're not brilliant. Data quality will vary from country to country.



    This also varies with how they define 'death by covid'. I'd like to know how many of those were due to underlying conditions worsening but also how many where frail and ill and just needed something like this to tip the balance the wrong way.

    I've found that pretty much all governments have used this to scare us into sheep mode. 
    If I had talent, I'd be talented.
    Persistent and inconsistent guitar player.
    A lefty, hence a fog of permanent frustration

    Not enough guitars, pedals, and cricket bats.
    USA Deluxe Strat - Martyn Booth Special - Electromatic
    FX Plex - Cornell Romany
    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 6965
    FastEddie said:
    This might be a naive question, but for those saying that Australia and NZ are struggling due to low natural immunity - will their long term effect be any worse than our death figures and effects to date? With a lot of the world (at least places from where people might travel to Aus or NZ) taking up vaccinations, presumably there's less risk of it wreaking the same havoc
    If you think that many of the 'uncontacted' tribes in the Amazon would be wiped out by the common cold or something simple it raises an eyebrow.

    That is extreme but without immunity NZ and Aus will have moved toward that outcome. Not all the way of course, but toward it.
    It also shows just how nasty a left wing government can be to their citizens. People in hospital with injuries from beatings by the Aus police, bs arrests and fines for not wearing a mask - pretty pointless.

    Big pharma knows that natural immunity is by far the best (Project Veritas getting their scientists talking off the record).

    The effect is mental health, freedom, but also physical as the next strain could be devastating. 
    Australia has a right wing government doesn't it? Unless that's changed recently?

    Also, presumably Aus and NZ have access to vaccines as well, so they are not like the indigenous tribes you mention. I have no natural immunity but I've had two jabs, so I wouldn't expect (statistically) to die from Covid if I did catch it.
    www.pianomatt.co.uk - Wedding and Event Pianist in the West Midlands
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 3reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.