Anyone mixed closed back cabs before?

guitarfishbay · August 2014

Has anybody used one amp but two different closed back cabinets together? What were your experiences? Do you know of any potential issues? Or I guess, any people who've run two amps and two cabs! I'm running a digital setup with a Matrix poweramp so that would be an option for me (though all my patches use one amp so far).

Currently I'm using a single 2x12 Mesa Rectifier cabinet. It is my favourite sounding cabinet however it is not without some issues - the biggest compromise is that it is very squat so ideally needs to be lifted up for easier monitoring.

I ran in to a problem last night at rehearsal where I was unable to raise it off the floor (the chairs were not deep enough to fit the cab + speaker cable). This meant I ran the cab louder than I'd want in order for the singer to be happy he could hear it. We're quite a loud rock band anyway, but I do try to keep things sensible!

I'm considering picking up a second 2x12 to sit underneath the Recto cab but I'm unsure what to get. Another Recto cab would be nice but they are expensive and I'm not sure if I want 2 of the same. I know my favourite speakers are Mesa V30s but I wouldn't mind having a second option anyway for when I don't want to run as loud. I do not want a 4x12, I've had 6 previously and I'd much rather stick with 2x12s for now for a number of practicality and tone reasons.

So to keep options brief, I guess I'm looking at 8 ohm 2x12s, ideally same depth and width as a 4x12. If I didn't get another Mesa I'd most likely go for regular V30s. I am however tempted by Creambacks, and K100s. Realistically the sensitivity of the cab doesn't matter too much as I can compensate for a lower volume cab by using the volume controls on the Matrix. This cabinet will be going on the bottom - should that affect my speaker choice? Possibly go for a mixed speaker cab?

Any ideas/suggestions welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.

ICBM · August 2014

Use two chairs, facing inwards with the cab 'bridged' across both of them.

You're going to find it difficult to get another 2x12" that's as deep as the Mesa without being another Mesa.

If you do get another cab, Mesa/Celestion C90s, Classic Lead 80s, K100s and even G12T-75s mix very well with V30s. G12H-30s do from a tone point of view but limit the combined power handling - although that won't be an issue unless your amp is more than 120W! In my personal opinion Greenbacks don't - and even more seriously limit the power handling - but some people seem to like it. (You'd also want them in the top cab with V30s in the bottom one, probably.)

Ah… re-read it and spotted that your amp is a Matrix. I know they're designed to be run clean and people don't seem to blow up speakers with them, but I'd still be wary of using anything as low-rated as Greenbacks or H30s with it.

guitarfishbay · August 2014

ICBM said:

1. Use two chairs, facing inwards with the cab 'bridged' across both of them.

2. You're going to find it difficult to get another 2x12" that's as deep as the Mesa without being another Mesa.

3. If you do get another cab, Mesa/Celestion C90s, Classic Lead 80s, K100s and even G12T-75s mix very well with V30s. G12H-30s do from a tone point of view but limit the combined power handling - although that won't be an issue unless your amp is more than 120W! In my personal opinion Greenbacks don't - and even more seriously limit the power handling - but some people seem to like it.

1. Two chairs... I feel stupid. That was an option as all the chairs were the same.

2. Not really! Engl Pro cab, Zilla Fatboy/Super Fat Boy, Montage Pro are all roughly the same and can be 8 ohms, the Orange 2x12 is slightly deeper but is 16 ohms. All would be cheaper options than a new Mesa.

3. Whatever I do will increase the power handling for my scenario. I'm using a Matrix GT1000FX, currently only using one side, which to 8 ohms gives 325 watts. If I use another cab I'll be running it on the other side so it will have its own 325 watt poweramp. Also it would mean I wouldn't have to run the level so high to each cab, reducing the danger of blown speakers.

guitarfishbay · August 2014

ICBM said:

Ah… re-read it and spotted that your amp is a Matrix. I know they're designed to be run clean and people don't seem to blow up speakers with them, but I'd still be wary of using anything as low-rated as Greenbacks or H30s with it.

@ICBM Also the greenback thing was a typo! I meant to type Creamback.

ICBM · August 2014

guitarfishbay said:
the Orange 2x12 is slightly deeper but is 16 ohms.

That surprises me! I've never compared them side-by-side, but I thought the Mesa was deeper. It must be an optical illusion caused by the very low height.

guitarfishbay said:
3. Whatever I do will increase the power handling for my scenario. I'm using a Matrix GT1000FX, currently only using one side, which to 8 ohms gives 325 watts. If I use another cab I'll be running it on the other side so it will have its own 325 watt poweramp. Also it would mean I wouldn't have to run the level so high to each cab, reducing the danger of blown speakers.

That is true. I must admit I haven't yet heard of anyone blowing cabs with a Matrix.

I'm just nervous about the concept of running an amp which is capable of putting out far more power than the cab can possibly handle, where musicians and gigs are concerned

. It's very easy to just 'turn up a bit', and because the power/volume curve is so non-linear you can very easily go from safe to unsafe without really thinking the volume is much higher - particularly as solid-state amps don't sound as loud as valve ones.

I would still definitely stick to a cab rating of ~150W though - that should be safe with Celestions because in theory they're rated for "an overdriven amp of the speaker rating", which can be up to double the clean power... hence a 60W-rated Celestion should handle up to around 120W of true electrical power. You won't be exceeding the maximum *clean* power of the Matrix - you'd know about that immediately since if it clips it will sound very nasty, hence if the speakers are rated for around half the power of the amp you're probably safe.

V30s also seem pretty tough for a "60W" speaker - they were originally rated at 70W, and I don't know if anything was actually changed or if Celestion were just being more conservative in case someone did something like connecting a pair to an Orange AD140

.

Phil_aka_Pip · August 2014

ICBM said:

Use two chairs, facing inwards with the cab 'bridged' across both of them.

slight thread hijack, but has anyone thought of manufacturing "beer crates" for guitarists?

Moltisanti · August 2014

i've been down this road of portability vs being able to hear smaller cabs, i've had amp stands, chairs, tilts the lot....

came all the way back to a 4x12, as long as they fit in your car and you don't try to carry them alone up stairs you shouldn't have issues with the portability, and once it's there it's by far the best option for me (i'm 6'6")

Dave_Mc · August 2014

Yeah I've tried mixing cabs (not with your amp, though).

I'm with ICBM (as usual). I haven't tried g12k100s but the other ones he mentioned work well with v30s in my opinion. I suspect the creamback g12h30 would too, but I haven't tried it. Might be worth considering if you want the g12h30 tone but without the limitation on power handling.

guitarfishbay · August 2014

Moltisanti said:

i've been down this road of portability vs being able to hear smaller cabs, i've had amp stands, chairs, tilts the lot....

came all the way back to a 4x12, as long as they fit in your car and you don't try to carry them alone up stairs you shouldn't have issues with the portability, and once it's there it's by far the best option for me (i'm 6'6")

So are you still using my old 1960B @Moltisanti?

4x12s are a bit of a pain with the size of my car. They fit - but I have to remove the rear seat bottoms every time I take my rig so they can be flattened properly, the lip for the boot and then the rear seat is quite frustrating when loading on my own. Oversize 4x12s, like I've been using until recently, are even worse with the way the lips in the car are. Plus I reckon my Mesa OS Straight was about 50kg.

Two 2x12s stacked gives the same height as a 4x12 anyway - possibly higher depending on what I get, and gives the option to do more stuff if I get different speakers. Also I know they'd fit in the car easily without even having to fold the seats - one cab in the boot with my pedalbaord, the other one on the back seats with my guitar(s) in the footwell and the rack/amp on the front seat.

@ICBM on another forum people have said to make sure the speaker cabs are wired for the same phase - how would I check this / make sure I ordered one with the same phase?

ICBM · August 2014

Most speakers are the same phase these days, so if the builder does the work correctly the cabs will be in phase. There are a few exceptions - old Jensens and JBLs for example.

You can check it easily with a 9V battery, assuming you can see the speaker cones. Touch the battery to the end of a cable plugged into the cab with the positive (stud) terminal touching the tip and the negative (crown) terminal touching the sleeve. The speaker cones should jump forward when the battery makes contact. Don't keep the battery on for any longer than necessary to see. You might need a bright light shining through the grille cloth in some cases.

Danny1969 · August 2014

If a cab is out of phase with another you want to use then you could wire a speaker cable with one end crossed over to compensate if you can't easily get to the jack socket or drivers

Moltisanti · August 2014

guitarfishbay said:

Moltisanti said:

i've been down this road of portability vs being able to hear smaller cabs, i've had amp stands, chairs, tilts the lot....

came all the way back to a 4x12, as long as they fit in your car and you don't try to carry them alone up stairs you shouldn't have issues with the portability, and once it's there it's by far the best option for me (i'm 6'6")

So are you still using my old 1960B @Moltisanti?

4x12s are a bit of a pain with the size of my car. They fit - but I have to remove the rear seat bottoms every time I take my rig so they can be flattened properly, the lip for the boot and then the rear seat is quite frustrating when loading on my own. Oversize 4x12s, like I've been using until recently, are even worse with the way the lips in the car are. Plus I reckon my Mesa OS Straight was about 50kg.

Two 2x12s stacked gives the same height as a 4x12 anyway - possibly higher depending on what I get, and gives the option to do more stuff if I get different speakers. Also I know they'd fit in the car easily without even having to fold the seats - one cab in the boot with my pedalbaord, the other one on the back seats with my guitar(s) in the footwell and the rack/amp on the front seat.

@ICBM on another forum people have said to make sure the speaker cabs are wired for the same phase - how would I check this / make sure I ordered one with the same phase?

i am using that 4x12, but it has 2 V30s in it now, and i sealed the inside too. I see what you mean if your car isn't a good fit then a 4x12 is a pain....

i had the Orange 2x12 for a while, it's absolutely massive and seriously heavy

guitarfishbay · August 2014

Well I thought about changing the car but the only reason I could come up with was 4x12 cabs. I eventually came to my senses. As I said I'd have kept them for recording but I honestly prefer the tone of the Mesa 2x12.

I think I'm going to have a think about ordering a Montage or a Zilla. My only complaint is that the Zilla I had was not really built too well - it had a 3 piece back which wasn't stiff enough for high volume palm mutes from a Rectifier, the centre panel vibrated visibly and audibly. Never played a closed back one. I can't find much about Montage cabs either, well not the Pro ones anyway. The intro cabs seem to get a good write up though.

Moltisanti · August 2014

i have a Montage intro 1x12 and it's very well built, i can only speculate but i would think the pro versions would be very good based on the one i have...not sure if they have a returns policy, if they are ordered online then in theory you should have the usual 7 day period to return it if it doesn't do the job

guitarfishbay · August 2014

Got to be honest I'm tempted to try Montage over Zilla because from the s/h one I bought (a Super Fat Boy with 3 piece back) I really wasn't seeing what all the fuss was about.

I wish I could find some kind of user report with the Pro 2x12, on paper it looks ideal. It is roughly the same size as the Orange 2x12 but I could get it in 8 ohms with whatever speakers I fancy. This would give me more power with the GT1000FX plus gives me the option to run both cabs together when I run valve amps.

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Anyone mixed closed back cabs before?

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