The Scotland thing - university education - facts please

Drew_TNBD · September 2014

Okay, so really I want to know this; does England subsidize Scotlands free university education for Scottish people and EU students? I'd always been told that we did, but never actually seen facts or figures to back it up.

thomasross20 · September 2014

Oh no, I hope this doesn't become a mob against Scotland thing

The real shame is that uni education isn't free all over - used to be!

Best thing I ever did was go to uni but if I had to pay £9k fees I wouldn't have gone, simple as (come from a poor background but came out top of my class at uni so strongly believe that money shouldn't be a part of it - drive and determination should).

Short of selling the NHS (which I think is going to happen) raising uni fees to £9k per year was one of the worst things that could ever have happened IMO.

Sorry but I just feel ill that you even asked this question; I just know things are going to get ugly and I'm not going to be a part of it (I like you guys!).

Drew_TNBD · September 2014

thomasross20 said:

Oh no, I hope this doesn't become a mob against Scotland thing

The real shame is that uni education isn't free all over - used to be!

Best thing I ever did was go to uni but if I had to pay £9k fees I wouldn't have gone, simple as (come from a poor background but came out top of my class at uni so strongly believe that money shouldn't be a part of it - drive and determination should).

Short of selling the NHS (which I think is going to happen) raising uni fees to £9k per year was one of the worst things that could ever have happened IMO.

Sorry but I just feel ill that you even asked this question; I just know things are going to get ugly and I'm not going to be a part of it (I like you guys!).

Dude, relax. It's just a question. Did I attack anyone when asking it? No. I did not.

thomasross20 · September 2014

No offence to you, honest. I just know how these things start and how they end up.
The real "enemy" is the big banks. If there's money involved then they'll have whatever it is packaged up to give them a return. Prior and post-referendum there was so this talk about banks and financial market uncertainty because the banks have control of most economies - we should know, we took up their liabilities when they near bankrupted us and they are still making out like bandits. Money talks!

Drew_TNBD · September 2014

For godsake guy... I'm not looking for an enemy. I'm looking for an answer to a simple question! It's like I'm asking about an aspect of designing planes and you're going off on a rant about UFO's!

Stop acting like this thread was an attack on Scotland. It wasn't. I am genuine in wanting to know the answer. I mentioned it someone else and they said it was just Daily Mail propoganda.. so I don't know what the truth is!

CabbageCat · September 2014

Drew_fx said:

For godsake guy... I'm not looking for an enemy. I'm looking for an answer to a simple question! It's like I'm asking about an aspect of designing planes and you're going off on a rant about UFO's!

Stop acting like this thread was an attack on Scotland. It wasn't. I am genuine in wanting to know the answer. I mentioned it someone else and they said it was just Daily Mail propoganda.. so I don't know what the truth is!

The UK provides money for Scotland, yes (just like it does for England). Scotland has decided that some of this money should go on providing free university education for Scottish students, yes. So I think that the initial "propaganda" is at least partially true.

I think what is misleading is the EU thing. If an EU nation pays for its students' higher education it will pay Scottish (or English, presumably) universities if they are doing the educating. The UK doesn't fund EU students. AFAIK.

crunchman · September 2014

To be honest, we should reduce the number of people going to univeristy, and fund the ones who do go properly.

There are a lot of graduates serving coffee in Starbucks etc. 30 years ago, I think it was only 20% or so of the population that went to university. That was funded properly - no tuition fees, you got maintenance grants for your living costs etc. I think we need to head back to that kind of proportion of people doing degrees.

There is a need for post school education but it doesn't have to be a full degree. A lot of people would be better off with something like an HND.

Drew_TNBD · September 2014

crunchman said:

To be honest, we should reduce the number of people going to univeristy, and fund the ones who do go properly.

There are a lot of graduates serving coffee in Starbucks etc. 30 years ago, I think it was only 20% or so of the population that went to university. That was funded properly - no tuition fees, you got maintenance grants for your living costs etc. I think we need to head back to that kind of proportion of people doing degrees.

There is a need for post school education but it doesn't have to be a full degree. A lot of people would be better off with something like an HND.

Almost certainly agree there. Perhaps for another thread though.

stickyfiddle · September 2014

crunchman said:

To be honest, we should reduce the number of people going to univeristy, and fund the ones who do go properly.

There are a lot of graduates serving coffee in Starbucks etc. 30 years ago, I think it was only 20% or so of the population that went to university. That was funded properly - no tuition fees, you got maintenance grants for your living costs etc. I think we need to head back to that kind of proportion of people doing degrees.

There is a need for post school education but it doesn't have to be a full degree. A lot of people would be better off with something like an HND.

Huge wisdom. There's nothing wrong with having a degree, but if everyone's got one then it's pointless on its own and you have to start drilling down into what degree course, what institution and what grade.

Having a degree has become a requirement of far too many jobs that don't actually need one. That disadvantages anyone who doesn't have one but has skills to get a job done, and disadvantages anyone who has a below-average one as they're saddled with god-knows how much debt that they'll probably never pay off.

I was lucky enough to go to a top uni just before fees started going through the roof. I feel very sorry for the current lot of school-leavers

Drew_TNBD · September 2014

CabbageCat said:

The UK provides money for Scotland, yes (just like it does for England). Scotland has decided that some of this money should go on providing free university education for Scottish students, yes. So I think that the initial "propaganda" is at least partially true.
I think what is misleading is the EU thing. If an EU nation pays for its students' higher education it will pay Scottish (or English, presumably) universities if they are doing the educating. The UK doesn't fund EU students. AFAIK.

AFAIK, the SAAS will pay for EU students to study in Scotland. It will not pay for English students to study in Scotland. English students have to get a loan from the SLC. Since our taxes go towards funding the SAAS, it's a bit hypocritical.

To be honest, if I had had a vote, this would've been one of the things to make me vote no. If I was Scottish there would be no way I would want to give up this saucy little package.

But as I say; I could be wrong. But if those facts are right... then the claim that England subsidizes Scottish higher education seems pretty sound to me.

Meanwhile myself and other English students are in £15+ K of debt with the student loan company for having the darn blasted termerity to not know our place!

thomasross20 · September 2014

I'm well out of this........... (but FYI I agree - less uni placements and more apprenticeships - again, I think it's a money thing).

digitalscream · September 2014

Drew_fx said:
Meanwhile myself and other English students are in £15+ K of debt with the student loan company for having the darn blasted termerity to not know our place!

Something worth considering is that under current rules, most students will only pay back a fraction of their student loan. It's set up like that so that, although the number looks huge for an individual's debt, it's really just quite a clever way for the government to make a massive hole in their finances a) a problem in 20 or 30 years', by which time they hope the economy's in a better position to handle it, and b) actually count those loans as an asset rather than a liability.

crunchman · September 2014

digitalscream said:

Drew_fx said:
Meanwhile myself and other English students are in £15+ K of debt with the student loan company for having the darn blasted termerity to not know our place!

Something worth considering is that under current rules, most students will only pay back a fraction of their student loan. It's set up like that so that, although the number looks huge for an individual's debt, it's really just quite a clever way for the government to make a massive hole in their finances a) a problem in 20 or 30 years', by which time they hope the economy's in a better position to handle it, and b) actually count those loans as an asset rather than a liability.

Recent governments have done a lot of that kind of creative accounting. Look at all the PFIs for schools and hospitals etc.

A generation ago the government would have been up front and borrowed the money, but they want to keep the headline figure for borrowing and the deficit lower in the short term, so they enter into a PFI which doesn't count against the figures in the short term. The problem is that you still have a liability to make repayments for 30 years - it's just not an "interest" repayment on debts.

That's part of the problem with the deficit now. We are spending billions in repayments on PFIs that were signed 10 or 15 years ago that are not officially government debt. We are still in a massive hole.

You are right. At present the government claims it is due repayments of several billion on student loans. Future governments are going to inherit the problem when a very large chunk of it is not paid off. Not to mention knock effects like reductions in VAT and stamp duty receipts etc as the repayments that are made reduce peoples effective income and what they can spend on goods, houses and so on.

In a way the Scottish approach is better because they are not storing up problems for future generations. There is still the problem of the overall funding levels and affordability though, which comes back to what I said above about the numbers who go to university.

What worries me is that our "democracy" leads to short term decisions about what will win or lose the next election. Keep the figures down now so that it looks good for the next election. You also see it in energy and transport policies. Government doesn't look enough at what will be the right long term decision over 30, 50 , or 100 years. It looks at what is least likely to lose them the next election.

Fretwired · September 2014

Drew_fx said:

Okay, so really I want to know this; does England subsidize Scotlands free university education for Scottish people and EU students? I'd always been told that we did, but never actually seen facts or figures to back it up.

We don't. Scotland gets a block grant. It's up to them how they spend it.

The real question is why do English students have to pay in England. Answer is because Blair brought fees in and needed Scottish MPs to get it through the Commons when many of his own English MPs did back the plans. So we need a situation in which English MPs vote on English matters and can be held accountable by the people of England. How the Scots spend there money is up to them.

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The Scotland thing - university education - facts please

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