Can modelling amps create the future ?

Voxman · October 2014

There's no question that DSP (digital signal processing) aka 'modelling' amps and MFX units have come on in leaps and bounds & they'll continue to do so. The cost of processing power has fallen considerably. However, the problem is not so much the modelling quality but the fact that current main-stream modelling amps (Vox Valvetronix, Fender Mustang, Peavey Vyper, Blackstar ID etc) are made to a very tight budget and often its the compromise on quality of components and the amp cab and speakers that typically let the underlying modelling down.

However there's arguably little point in making modelling gear with top components, cabs & speakers because such gear is akin to computers i.e. very quickly superseded by the next version, with low residual values.

Quite some years back one manufacturer did make a top-quality modelling amp with first class components and quality speakers. These are very rare to find second-hand because they are so good users just keep them. I've played one myself and its awesome - simply the best pure DSP amp I've ever heard - the amp is the Hughes & Kettner Zentera (with Z-Board floor controller). Made from 1999 -2005 these amps had 2x Sharc 32-bit floating point DSP chips that were incredibly expensive at that time. Speakers were Celestion Vintage 30's and the cabs were birch-ply not mdf. Prices for the 2x12 120w Zentera were originally well over £2,000 and that was 15 years ago!

Only now has the cost of processing come way down, e.g. the Blackstar ID's now use a single Sharc 32 point chip. The Kemper should probably be classed a little differently as its an amp profiler rather than a guitar amp in the conventional sense. But I'm sure it won't be long before Kemper prices start to reduce considerably or someone else clones it.

For dedicated tube purists there's still a way to go before they really can't hear or feel the difference - especially in a live gigging situation. But it will happen. The biggest problem with valve amps is their weight and the maintenance costs, and even now some players who have used tube rigs all their lives are turning to modelling replacement rigs because the tone/feel is now 'good enough' where the weight and maintenance costs of valve rigs is no longer viable for them.

Perhaps the best current mainstream* solution for many people is to use both - for example a MFX modelling unit (eg Zoom G5, Vox Tonelab, Line 6 HD 500, Boss GT100 etc) with their valve amps for the best of both worlds i.e. underlying valve tone but with modelling tonal flexibility (* expensive stuff like AxFx and Kemper aside as that's out of the reach currently for buyers in the mass market).

GuyBoden · October 2014

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

I wouldn't.

There really is a reason why the Axe FX and Kemper are so talked about when it comes to modelling - they're the best. Full stop. VST's don't even come close, because they're either made to a CPU or monetary budget, or they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

Fretwired · October 2014

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

You can do that now although I don't think a laptop will be the way to go. You can already use an iPad or iPhone to control modelling amps and amp sim products. The future will allow more flexibility merging a rack unit with a foot controller to software that will allow you to closely model amps, effects, signal chain, set lists and so controlled by a pad or computer. You will be able to design your own amps, effects, rigs, pickups and add synthesis, altered tunings and all sorts of stuff.

Some interesting ideas here .. like the mix of guitar and bass guitar ...

Danny1969 · October 2014

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

You can do that off the desk now, you can route out of the desk into your DAW, through your amp sim and back in the desk. The latency is hardly noticable. The bass player in one band I'm in hasn't got any pedals so his Muse style synth fuzz was put on by the guy on the desk when we gigged. On something like the Presonus Studiolive desk it's one button at the top of the channel strip. Select fire wire and the signal goes through whatever you have rigged up in your daw. Select direct and the signal bypass;'s the daw. If they ever released the AX or Kemper in software this would be an easy way to run it

As Drew said modelling needs a valve power amp. If you put whatever makes your tone through a valve power amp it will generally sound ok, as that's what most people are doing with pedals. The horrible square wave clipping you get from diodes and transistors sounds a lot more bearable when it's rounded off by the imperfections of a valve amp ...... it's nonlinear transfer through the transformers and such.

I'm experimenting with ss circuits using transformers at the moment as I'm convinced a lot of the mojo isn't the valve it's the tranformer

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

I wouldn't.

There really is a reason why the Axe FX and Kemper are so talked about when it comes to modelling - they're the best. Full stop. VST's don't even come close, because they're either made to a CPU or monetary budget, or they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

Totally with Drew.

I don't use any ampsims any more for guitars, just the Axe FX. The difference is massive plus now I use barely any CPU.

For control, the Axe FX is awesome. The way you can assign parameters is super powerful.

Read this - http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/images/0/04/7_Modifiers_&_Controllers.pdf

You can assign any parameter per preset to (and these are tweakable):

LFO x2

ADSR (attack, decay, sustain release) x2

Sequence

Pitch (for a laugh I created a patch that increased volume as the pitch got higher - it would be finicky to dial in perfectly but it would be possible)

Envelope Follower

Manual (uses ABCD on front panel)

External (you can have up to 12 external controllers eg expression pedals)

GuyBoden · October 2014

Drew_fx said:
they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

We don't know, but maybe a programmer that is freely sharing their work for the community to use/evaluate will gain enough knowledge and expertise to be one of the outstanding music software programmers of the future.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

GuyBoden said:

Drew_fx said:
they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

We don't know, but maybe a programmer that is freely sharing their work for the community to use/evaluate will gain enough knowledge and expertise to be one of the outstanding music software programmers of the future.

Yup!! Is generally how it works.

Clarky · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

I wouldn't.

There really is a reason why the Axe FX and Kemper are so talked about when it comes to modelling - they're the best. Full stop. VST's don't even come close, because they're either made to a CPU or monetary budget, or they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

got to violently agree with this....

samzadgan · October 2014

My short answer is...it will at some point but i hope it doesn't.

Im one those guys that still likes physical tactile objects...and although a digital solution might still get the sound and feel it will never be a real amp in my eyes.

But this is from someone who refuses to read on a kindle...and i still love using fountain pens on a daily basis.

GuyBoden · October 2014

Clarky said:

Drew_fx said:

GuyBoden said:

If I could play guitar whilst operating my laptop with my foot I'd use computer software for effects and amp sounds.

Here's a dedicated Guitar Amp modelling forum, the free amps sim section is worth a browse.
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/

I wouldn't.

There really is a reason why the Axe FX and Kemper are so talked about when it comes to modelling - they're the best. Full stop. VST's don't even come close, because they're either made to a CPU or monetary budget, or they're made by bedroom hobbyists who have just learnt their first waveshaper algorithm.

got to violently agree with this....

Playing a guitar through a laptop for live gigs has been going on for years, probably since latency hasn't been a big issue. My post was pointing out the fact that it's virtually impossible for me to operate the keyboard whilst playing the guitar.

Fretwired · October 2014

GuyBoden said:

Playing a guitar through a laptop for live gigs has been going on for years, probably since latency hasn't been a big issue. My post was pointing out the fact that it's virtually impossible for me to operate the keyboard whilst playing the guitar.

You need a floorboard that connects to your PC .. they exist .. :-)

For example .. http://www.musicradar.com/reviews/guitars/ik-multimedia-stompio-147643

EricTheWeary · October 2014

Big Head Todd was gigging with Amp Farm on a laptop and a foot controller maybe 8 years ago? Axe FX user now I believe?

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

EricTheWeary said:

Big Head Todd was gigging with Amp Farm on a laptop and a foot controller maybe 8 years ago? Axe FX user now I believe?

I've seen bands using a laptop and POD Farm, only small acts though.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I saw a post-rock guy use GuitarRig live once. It sounded utterly awe...ful. Totally ruined the music. This tech is not meant for every genre imho. Some music benefits greatly from it, other music loses a lot.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

I wouldn't choose to use Pod Farm live.

In fact I have the possibly controversial opinion that Pod Farm might have contributed to cocking up my technique at one point. The dynamic range just isn't realistic on it, which is part of the tone (and why the tones sometimes sound quite good recorded for high gain). But yeah when I spent a fair amount of time not playing in bands all I used was Pod Farm at home. When I got back into bands again I bought a Blackstar HT60 and even the dynamics on that were miles better than Pod Farm and playing loud was totally alien to me, my control of dynamics was rubbish. When I got the S1, and then the Roadster I really came to realise how unrealistic Pod Farm was, but I could separate it out for what it is - a good and reasonably priced recording tool. I definitely learned a lot about what kinds of tones and FX I like by using Pod Farm and don't regret it - I just wished I'd bought valve amps sooner. Prior to the HT60 I used a Flextone 2 XL for a long time, and the feel/dynamics on those don't compare to valve amps either...

I don't so much think it is that modelling screws up your playing dynamics, but if you aren't aware of how important dynamics are because your setup just doesn't translate the playing information, then you can end up with poorer control and technique. There is a reason why good players are able to get good tones from 'unforgiving' amps, when poorer players struggle. I definitely consider using valve amps potentially quite positive for player development.

Right now I don't use modelling plugins at all for guitars because the feel of the Axe FX is so noticeably better. The Kemper might well be even better again, but I'm not planning to own both right now and the Axe FX is seriously much better already.

Through a cab there is quite a big difference between a Pod HD and the Axe FX 2 too, I'm not sure I agree with people who seem to maintain there isn't much difference through a power amp and cab... IMO there really is.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

@guitarfishbay I agree with the responsiveness and feel of pod farm, and the tone is largely down to the cab ir's, though again, changing them massively helps the tone but it doesn't fix the dynamics much.

@drew_fx the band i remember most using it (can't remember the name, but they were supporting rise to remain) sounded okay, but worse than the other acts. If it was the only band, I'd have been happy but when the real amps came out, there was an improvement in the sound.

Fretwired · October 2014

ThePrettyDamned said:

EricTheWeary said:

Big Head Todd was gigging with Amp Farm on a laptop and a foot controller maybe 8 years ago? Axe FX user now I believe?

I've seen bands using a laptop and POD Farm, only small acts though.

John McLaughlin used Amplitube for about ten years .. still doesn't use amps. Quite a few of the guitarists I like don't use amps.

GuyBoden · October 2014

guitarfishbay said:

I wouldn't choose to use Pod Farm live.

In fact I have the possibly controversial opinion that Pod Farm might have contributed to cocking up my technique at one point. The dynamic range just isn't realistic on it, which is part of the tone (and why the tones sometimes sound quite good recorded for high gain). But yeah when I spent a fair amount of time not playing in bands all I used was Pod Farm at home. When I got back into bands again I bought a Blackstar HT60 and even the dynamics on that were miles better than Pod Farm and playing loud was totally alien to me, my control of dynamics was rubbish. When I got the S1, and then the Roadster I really came to realise how unrealistic Pod Farm was, but I could separate it out for what it is - a good and reasonably priced recording tool. I definitely learned a lot about what kinds of tones and FX I like by using Pod Farm and don't regret it - I just wished I'd bought valve amps sooner. Prior to the HT60 I used a Flextone 2 XL for a long time, and the feel/dynamics on those don't compare to valve amps either...

I don't so much think it is that modelling screws up your playing dynamics, but if you aren't aware of how important dynamics are because your setup just doesn't translate the playing information, then you can end up with poorer control and technique. There is a reason why good players are able to get good tones from 'unforgiving' amps, when poorer players struggle. I definitely consider using valve amps potentially quite positive for player development.

Right now I don't use modelling plugins at all for guitars because the feel of the Axe FX is so noticeably better. The Kemper might well be even better again, but I'm not planning to own both right now and the Axe FX is seriously much better already.

Through a cab there is quite a big difference between a Pod HD and the Axe FX 2 too, I'm not sure I agree with people who seem to maintain there isn't much difference through a power amp and cab... IMO there really is.

Good post, very informative.

impmann · October 2014

I love the idea about being able to hear digital... if you can hear ones and zeros, then something has gone very wrong with the DAC in the amplifier.

I think, most guitarists are very small 'c' conservative. They are stuck in the mindset of using guitars designed by our grandparents, through amplifier circuits that hark back to the 1940s and trying to obtain "authentic" tones whilst doing so... for example: the number of whiney white boy blooz guitar players who buy 1950s/60s strats and then go on about "authentic" blues tones - yes, cos they had these in the cotton fields...

:^o

The 80s was, in my opinion, the last time popular music took a leap forwards - and if you look at guitar players of that period, most of them were using modern-designed instruments and amplifiers. Since then the musical world has become obsessed with looking backwards for inspiration - from the genres themselves to the equipment used to create it. And that is why at this point, there is very little coming through the mainstream that is new and fresh... plus why there are very few new *big* bands. Just look at how hard it is to find a headline act for Glastonbury that isn't in their mid 40s or older....

Plus I read on a forum the other day (so it must be true!!) that folks are now actively searching out "old school" modelling units (such as the original, "script logo" Pod II) as they sound "better"... yeah, dry that out, you can fertilise a lawn...

So will modelling play a huge part in the sounds of tomorrow? Well, I think that is inevitable. Whether that be from Axe FX, Blackstar, Line6 or from another company yet to be formed. Integrating digital with analogue is here to stay - how many of you crave Styrmons to run with your boutique analogue amps? Well, guess what... there's "modelling" in that Timeline, it may not be as 'overt' as in earlier modelling units but its there. There are a great many low-mid price valve amps that use modelling algorhythms to generate the reverb (Blackstar have done this for some time)... and its this integration that is where the excitement lies.

Why on god's earth does anyone want to sound exactly the same as someone else? All the great guitar players wanted to sound unique.... and most of them do. So for me, the ability to blend, pick, choose and morph sounds using digital technology is the most exciting piece of all this - whether or not a modelled sound is "identical" to an 'original' is irrelevant, as I can use the technology to morph it into something unique... or at least unique to my ears. And looking forwards (as opposed to backwards like most folk seem to) means that things progress... and that is what we need in music right now.

So yes - of course modelling is going to sculpt the sounds of the future. It already is doing so...

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Can modelling amps create the future ?

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