Advice wanted - 5E3 vs JTM45

Doodler · June 1

I am a noob here, so hello everyone. Getting back into guitar in middle age.

I have a JTM 45 reissue head from 1989 running KT66's, and I love its natural overdrive sound. However, I keep seeing/hearing people singing the praises of the 5E3 circuit. Given the JTM 45's lineage from the tweed Bassman, is the 5E3 sound drastically different? In other words, if I were to acquire a 5E3 clone of some sort down the line, would there be substantial overlap in the tone/feel palette with my JTM 45? Or different enough that both the head and the heart can justify the extra outlay?

I typically plug directly into my amps, as I find pedals beyond a simple wah/EQ in front too fiddly for my simple brain. And I use an attenuator, so native volume to get to the overdriven tones isn't typically an issue

Many thanks for any help from people who have experience with both.

Neilybob · June 1

If you live in the Purley near Reading, let's grab a practice room and workout it out together!

Edit: I have a 5E3 and a 5F11 combo

Doodler · June 1

Unfortunately not near Reading. I am south of Croydon

ryanverbena · June 1

The biggest difference you’ll notice is the sag. It’s extremely fun when you’re used to playing Marshalls, even though your JTM 45 is already one of their squishier varieties. You’ll blalmost certainly be able to drive it to that level at more reasonable volumes with most of the sub 20w circuits.

In general I find the 5E3 and similar tweed circuits to be much more forgiving because they are less direct.

That compression really helps you loosen up your playing, which in turn lets you get the most out of the touch dynamics - and those are definitely more varied and dramatic than what you get from a Marshall.

Enjoy, that sounds like fun

Winny_Pooh · June 1

Buy a 5e3 also, it will get more rude dirt (simplicity of circuit gain and it's paraphrase PI) and flabby (coupling cas let lots of low end hit the later stages) in a great way and in a 1x12 combo it's very easy to carry and leave the house with.

Neilybob · June 1

Doodler said:

Unfortunately not near Reading. I am south of Croydon

Dang it

ICBM · June 1

Doodler said:

I have a JTM 45 reissue head from 1989 running KT66's, and I love its natural overdrive sound. However, I keep seeing/hearing people singing the praises of the 5E3 circuit. Given the JTM 45's lineage from the tweed Bassman, is the 5E3 sound drastically different? In other words, if I were to acquire a 5E3 clone of some sort down the line, would there be substantial overlap in the tone/feel palette with my JTM 45? Or different enough that I both the head and the heart can justify the extra outlay?

Really drastically different.

The JTM45 - and the 5F6-A Bassman it was copied from, which is totally different in every way from a 5E3 despite being made at the same time by the same company - have a far wider frequency response and less compression when overdriven, and basically a much bigger sound when pushed rather than the midrangy saggy farty exploding-amp sound of a 5E3

. The EQ on the Marshall also works much more intuitively and effectively.

Disclaimer: I'm not actually a huge fan of the 5E3, despite being one of Neil Young's electric sound. It works for him, but not so well for me.

springhead · June 1

I’ve got both, clones that I’ve built. Different beasts, enjoyable in different ways. We did a rehearsal recently in our local 250ish capacity venue, so decent sized room. I bypassed my pedals and it was just Les Paul into the tweed deluxe running fairly hard. Glorious.

Modulus_Amps · June 1

Besides the amps sounding very different, the difference between a head and decent speaker cab and a little pine cab 1 X12 is pretty drastic too.

I like both, But for different reasons. The speaker in the 5E3 makes a massive difference too the enjoyment of the amp.

Doodler · June 1

Many thanks for all the helpful replies. Lots to chew over.

Re: the last point about the difference in cabs, I could try to run my JTM45 through my V30 loaded pine 1x12 open back cab in order to reduce that sonic difference. But it appears the consensus is that the feel is still widely different due to the amp circuit alone.

NB: I have a somewhat heretical opinion of the tone of Neil Young’s guitar, or maybe it’s my opinion of his playing , but am a huge fan of Mike Campbell. Even though I am aware there’s also a Princeton in the mix

TheMarlin · June 1

An analogy.

The Marshall is like Freddy Mercury.

The 5E3 is more Shane McGowan.

Both amazing in their own way, very different execution.

p90fool · June 2

The 5E3 can be the most fun you've ever had playing guitar, but can also be fatiguing and may not fit in at all with what you realistically need from an amp.
It's one of those things where I'd like an hour on it every once in a while but I can walk away smiling but for you it could be the holy grail, but I can use a JTM45 for anything.

It's totally personal in other words, but yes, there is a huge difference between them at volume.

MikeP · June 2

5e3/ lazy j pedal into the jtm 45 might be worth for a taste?

ICBM · June 2

MikeP said:

5e3/ lazy j pedal into the jtm 45 might be worth for a taste?

Not sure if that would really work, since the key characteristic of the 5E3 - and why I don’t get on with them, other than at lower volume - is the compression and soggy response when driven hard, which comes from the power amp.

It's the same reason as why I can’t use compressors, even though I like the sound of compression when other people use it - I just find it difficult to play when I can’t control the dynamics with picking strength.

HAL9000 · June 2

I use a 5E3 type amp in our band which plays mostly Chicago-style blues. It can go from clean to EC to the full Neil Young so ideal for the band I’m currently in. However I’d also say it’s a bit of a one-trick pony. Great for blues or Americana but probably not really versatile enough for heavier genres.

merlin · June 2

It's highly likely that you'll want more headroom if you get a 5e3 circuit. They go to squish and pulp pretty quickly. Above 3 and they get no louder, just more squished and distorted. And more boxey.

You'll need to mic it through the PA if you want to keep up with most kinds of drummer. Unless you're a jazzer, in which case it will work.

longshins · June 3

I’ve had an 18 watt Marshall and 5e3 at the same time. I found the 5e3 much more fun, on paper it should be rubbish… farty, no headroom, nasty drive etc but in a band context it sounds ace. It did find it varied massively depending on what speaker I was running it with. I like the Harvard circuit the most though.

dazzajl · June 3

p90fool said:

The 5E3 can be the most fun you've ever had playing guitar, but can also be fatiguing and may not fit in at all with what you realistically need from an amp.
It's one of those things where I'd like an hour on it every once in a while but I can walk away smiling but for you it could be the holy grail, but I can use a JTM45 for anything.

It's totally personal in other words, but yes, there is a huge difference between them at volume.

This perfectly sums up the experience of the 5e3. A good one anyway. To me these amps should be balancing on the line between raw soulful grit and unusable. The volume kicks in somewhere between one and two on the dial and by the time you get to three, it’s as loud as it gets. Which is window popping loud! From there you have a sag and squish dial not a loudness one.

I remember one rehearsal with my Vyse 5e3 and Master Built Gretsch Annie, it was the most glorious, even spiritual experience. The best guitar sound I’ve ever heard in my life. Never found it again. That is life with a ‘real’ deluxe.

There is a whole cottage industry out there recreating versions of this amp. Some have decided to make it into something useable and those are great as what they are but to me, they’re not ‘it’.

Winny_Pooh · June 3

@dazzajl said:

p90fool said:

The 5E3 can be the most fun you've ever had playing guitar, but can also be fatiguing and may not fit in at all with what you realistically need from an amp.
It's one of those things where I'd like an hour on it every once in a while but I can walk away smiling but for you it could be the holy grail, but I can use a JTM45 for anything.

It's totally personal in other words, but yes, there is a huge difference between them at volume.

This perfectly sums up the experience of the 5e3. A good one anyway. To me these amps should be balancing on the line between raw soulful grit and unusable. The volume kicks in somewhere between one and two on the dial and by the time you get to three, it’s as loud as it gets. Which is window popping loud! From there you have a sag and squish dial not a loudness one.

I remember one rehearsal with my Vyse 5e3 and Master Built Gretsch Annie, it was the most glorious, even spiritual experience. The best guitar sound I’ve ever heard in my life. Never found it again. That is life with a ‘real’ deluxe.

There is a whole cottage industry out there recreating versions of this amp. Some have decided to make it into something useable and those are great as what they are but to me, they’re not ‘it’.

I have that deluxe now, it is glorious with filters cranked up in the way you remember it with a Celestion Blue, however it used to have linear volume pots which are now log and the range of volume taper is massively better.

Most 5E3 deluxes can have that tone if you drop the overall voltage and have a midrangey Blue (used in Lazy Js too albeit with 6L6s and underspecced PT, or was it OT?)
With the lower PT voltage the Vyse struggles with a loud drummer where a CARR Merc V (also two 6V6s and a SS rectifier) doesn't.

That Vyse now also has a neg feedback switch for cleans and a Jensen BB40 which is a beautiful balanced speaker but absolutely not bland and tight like Jensens older neos.

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Advice wanted - 5E3 vs JTM45

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