Helix LT is now available for order. Cut down version - ish.

Drew_TNBD

It's a fallacy to say these things were meant to be used frfr... If that were true you wouldn't be allowed to load an amp or preamp without a cab or impulse response.

Jonathanthomas83

.

John_A

Drew_TNBD said:

It's a fallacy to say these things were meant to be used frfr... If that were true you wouldn't be allowed to load an amp or preamp without a cab or impulse response.

Of course you can use things any way you like, but if the power amp and cab are not presentative of the type of preamp you are using then it wont sound 'right' eg a Dual rec preamp in to the FX return of a Hot Rod Deluxe isn't going to sound as good as a Dual Rec head into a Mesa cab.  It'll be a Dual Rec flavoured sound certainly, but not as close as if you use a full amp model in to a IR in to a FRFR cab.

And bringing Guthrie Govan's opinions in to this, it's not like he's human so his opinion doesn't count

Drew_TNBD

John_A said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's a fallacy to say these things were meant to be used frfr... If that were true you wouldn't be allowed to load an amp or preamp without a cab or impulse response.

Of course you can use things any way you like, but if the power amp and cab are not presentative of the type of preamp you are using then it wont sound 'right' eg a Dual rec preamp in to the FX return of a Hot Rod Deluxe isn't going to sound as good as a Dual Rec head into a Mesa cab.  It'll be a Dual Rec flavoured sound certainly, but not as close as if you use a full amp model in to a IR in to a FRFR cab.

Right, but that isn't what was said. The claim seemed to be that if you go 100% all in, then you'll be happy with the tones - as if people who were using valve poweramps or non-FRFR solutions were using the kit wrong. Which is demonstrably false.

welshboyo

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Running a plethora of different preamps like @NelsonP has done into a Mesa flavoured poweramp (which is voiced for the Calibre) is not going to give favoured results and the real deal is always going to come out on top purely because of the physics behind it.

This has been mentioned already so won't labour the point, but again proves that both sides (real/modelled) both need to be used in the correct context to make a fair comparison - its like running the real preamp of a Dual or Triple Rec into the poweramp of a Squier SP10 practice amp and stating that its lost some bottom end..

I agree, the Helix as astounding as it is (or any modelling for that matter) will never replace the raw feeling of a cooking loud valve amp, but for the gigging/recording musician who needs to put his or her hand on a wide range of tones which don't "feel" artificial in their response or more importantly the sound then they are unbeatable and will win hands-down in that regard.

Jonathanthomas83

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Those who have gone all in - 100% are feeling good about their tone, some who try to shoehorn a modeller into an analog rig aren't getting so much luck. 

Drew_TNBD said:

as if people who were using valve poweramps or non-FRFR solutions were using the kit wrong.

I can see why you thought I said that but it's not what I meant and I don't think it's wrong for the gear to be used that way at all.

John_A

Don't think any claims have been made that FRFR was the only way to use these 'It's a fallacy to say these things were meant to be used frfr' isn't quite right either, they are designed to be used FRFR to get the most versatility out of them, but if someone likes their amp/cab and are happy with the compromise that comes with using them then why not, just don't expect an accurate Princeton reverb out of a mesa 4x12

Drew_TNBD

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

welshboyo

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Could very well be dude, makes sense actually

Teetonetal

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

Drew_TNBD

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

Yeah, so with a FRFR system you have some of that interaction - in the amp model you've got the feedback between preamp and poweramp. But less so with the speaker, as the speaker is just a linear filter essentially.

In a situation where you have the preamp only, fed into the return of a valve amp, you don't have that feedback. Likewise if you run say a Kemper or AX-8 into one of the FX loops of the Helix.

So I think there is still a level of modelling that is missing for the people who want to use modellers as preamps into valve poweramps, and you can only get this by having total control over the playback system.

Teetonetal

Drew_TNBD said:

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

Yeah, so with a FRFR system you have some of that interaction - in the amp model you've got the feedback between preamp and poweramp. But less so with the speaker, as the speaker is just a linear filter essentially.

In a situation where you have the preamp only, fed into the return of a valve amp, you don't have that feedback. Likewise if you run say a Kemper or AX-8 into one of the FX loops of the Helix.

So I think there is still a level of modelling that is missing for the people who want to use modellers as preamps into valve poweramps, and you can only get this by having total control over the playback system.

Sounds entirely plausible to me. I guess you'd need some system where the preamp can be told it's being run into an fx return and switches on some form of  interaction modelling?

Drew_TNBD

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

Yeah, so with a FRFR system you have some of that interaction - in the amp model you've got the feedback between preamp and poweramp. But less so with the speaker, as the speaker is just a linear filter essentially.

In a situation where you have the preamp only, fed into the return of a valve amp, you don't have that feedback. Likewise if you run say a Kemper or AX-8 into one of the FX loops of the Helix.

So I think there is still a level of modelling that is missing for the people who want to use modellers as preamps into valve poweramps, and you can only get this by having total control over the playback system.

Sounds entirely plausible to me. I guess you'd need some system where the preamp can be told it's being run into an fx return and switches on some form of  interaction modelling?

You'd need more than that. You'd need the poweramp to be able to send stuff back to the preamp, so either you do something crazy with maths like the Kemper and model an entire system, or you release a dedicated poweramp unit that matches up with your modeller and has all the crosstalk and feedback possibilities required.

But doing that latency free? Not really an easy task!

Take something like the UAD cards, or even Propellerheads Reason... adding an effect even in the digital realm with no AD/DA still adds latency.

Voxman

Cabicular mysaid:

This is phone footage obviously but I don't think it's obvious there is no Guitar Amp
onstage?

4:22 if you want to hear the lead tone and an embarrassing lack of appreciation for my stellar guitar playing

Mean spirited buggers...I think your playing deserved way more love than you got!  We cover quite a few Zep tracks too and as a Zep fan myself, I certainly appreciated your take on those songs.

And you know what? You don't even need something as sophisticated and state of the art as a Helix to sound good and amplike live.  I can still get some great live classic rock tones with my old tech Tonelab SE and LE. 

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

That's what the Axe FX 2/AX8 speaker tab models IIRC, you can match the resonant frequency, Q width and amount.  

Setting it 'right' for the guitar cab you're using does make a noticeable difference in feel, especially loud through a traditional cab via SS poweramp.

It's not 100% in this scenario but it's close enough for me. I don't think it's close enough for Drew.

There's a lot more flexibility for this through an IR. However IIRC Clarky just sets his however he wants, a lot lower (in frequency) than I'd set mine when using cabs.

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Teetonetal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

welshboyo said:

John_A said:

Welshboyo has pointed out previously that the Helix Shiva preamp in to the FX return of his Shiva sounds exactly like the real amp

This is indeed correct - but then why shouldn't it - its the modelled version of the actual preamp into the actual real world poweramp and cab that sits behind it...

Something one of the Line 6 dudes said on TGP got me thinking. I'm paraphrasing as fuck so I might have this wrong, but that in a full amp there are signal connections and feedback loops that exist between the preamp and poweramp stages, as well as the impedance loading between the poweramp and the speaker.

His suggestion was that some people don't like rack units precisely because they lack this connection between the preamp and poweramp - ie; it's just an audio signal being feed from one to the other, with no real connection between the components.

I've been thinking that this could also be the reason that some people don't really like modellers. Nothing to do with the modeller itself, but more that isn't a singular system with crosstalk and feedback loops and signal bleed like what you get in a fully assembled valve amp.

Again - just thinking... not saying that IS the case. But I found it interesting. I'll see if I can dig up his original statement.

Sort of the same theory as to why a reactive load is better than a restive one? Wouldn't the idea be to model that sort of interaction? Especially if using the internal cabs into PA/FRFR

That's what the Axe FX 2/AX8 speaker tab models IIRC, you can match the resonant frequency, Q width and amount.  

Setting it 'right' for the guitar cab you're using does make a noticeable difference in feel, especially loud through a traditional cab via SS poweramp.

It's not 100% in this scenario but it's close enough for me. I don't think it's close enough for Drew.

There's a lot more flexibility for this through an IR. However IIRC Clarky just sets his however he wants, a lot lower (in frequency) than I'd set mine when using cabs.

I don't think that is the same thing we're talking about. Because it's still only one way communication, it's not two way. The resonant frequency, Q-width and amount, and other aspects of the system.. they change depending on voltages running through the system. That's where sag comes from AFAIK.

Paging @ICBM for a bit more knowledge on that front!

guitarfishbay

That's what it does in the Axe FX modelling unless I'm not understanding. It feeds how the poweramp modelling works and affects how the bass clips at different master settings etc. 

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

That's what it does in the Axe FX modelling unless I'm not understanding. It feeds how the poweramp modelling works and affects how the bass clips at different master settings etc. 

Right, but we're talking about using ONLY the preamp from the modeller (like in the Helix where you have dedicated preamp models) and a real physical poweramp into a cabinet. In such a setup you don't get that two way interaction. The whole premise being, perhaps that is why people tend to prefer modellers into FRFR setups rather than into a real poweramp and cab. This is based on some of the input in this thread where some people said they liked the tone but didn't like the "feel".

Jonathanthomas83

Drew_TNBD said:

This is based on some of the input in this thread where some people said they liked the tone but didn't like the "feel".

The feel from IR's through FRFR or the feel of a Helix preamp through a power amp and cab?

Drew_TNBD

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

This is based on some of the input in this thread where some people said they liked the tone but didn't like the "feel".

The feel from IR's through FRFR or the feel of a Helix preamp through a power amp and cab?

Well people made different statements, but take what @NelsonP said earlier - I actually think he's getting a bit of a tough time for what seemed to me to be a fairly level headed response.

Remember, at this point we're discussing the technology - not your choice of what you prefer. Essentially what I'm saying is that you FRFR guys who are essentially fully in the box until the moment the sound hits the speaker, you're getting a fully interactive system that the guys who plug into a real poweramp are not getting.

Same discussion with rack preamps and poweramps versus amps too tbh.