Neck shim

Danny1969

I've just put together a partscaster and even with the allan bolts unwound and the saddles nearly on the trem base the action is still a bit grim ... and the allan bolts are uncomfortable under my hand. Would a shim sort this out ? if so what do I make it out of and how thick ?

Sesh

I'd start with a piece of card (e.g. from a business card) at the body end of the neck pocket. Go full width but only ~10mm long. This should get you started, but you may need a couple in there..

guitarfishbay

Yes, and business card works fine IME. Try one to begin with and see if that works.

DLM

It'll not help with the action, but: different lengths of saddle-height-adjustment allen bolt are available. I use shorter ones on the E strings to allow for the fretboard radius.

Sassafras

Playing cards are pretty good as shims and they don't compress as much as other types of card.

Jack_

Cut the shim so it's a good fit for the pocket, don't just stick a random rectangle of card in like so many shims.

Draw the pocket onto the card, and then cut accordingly so the shim sits nicely in the pocket.

Also, what is the neck angle like? You may want to consider how big and where you position the shim.

guitarfishbay

DLM said:

It'll not help with the action, but: different lengths of saddle-height-adjustment allen bolt are available. I use shorter ones on the E strings to allow for the fretboard radius.

This is not correct.

It will help the action, if the issue is that the saddles are as low as they'll go and that isn't low enough.  In this case you put a shim at the bridge end of the neck pocket and it'll tilt the neck backwards.  This does lower the action.

Even if the action is nice but the screws are digging in to your hand you can use a shim, as you'll need to raise the saddles in order to achieve the same action as without a shim.  But you are correct you could use shorter screws in this scenario too.

Using a shim at the bridge end also increases the break angle which changes the feel (increased break angle tends to feel a little more 'tight')

Danny1969

Sassafras said:

Playing cards are pretty good as shims and they don't compress as much as other types of card.

Playing card is an exact fit in this neck pocket

Cabicular

You haven't owned a fender until you've jammed a pink plectrum into the neck pocket as a 'temporary fix'

Bridgehouse

The stew mac wooden shims might seem like overkill, but they really are very very good...

Dave_Vader

Does nobody use Rizla packets anymore?

I found a load I stashed for just this reason the other day from before the last time I gave up the fags.

I've been known to use them under nuts that have gone a bit low as well.

Jimbro66

Bridge saddles being too low is pretty easy to correct with a neck shim. All the suggestions above work. I've used strips of flexible fine metal mesh that came from Charlie Chandler years ago, or even razor blades for minimal shimming.

Today I had the opposite problem with the bridge saddles being wound up to the limits of the grub screws, which looks silly and effects pickup height. That needed a reverse shim at the pocket end farthest from the bridge, which is harder to keep in place when refitting the neck.

But all a lot easier than dealing with through-necks (thanks Leo)

guitarfishbay

Jimbro66 said:

Today I had the opposite problem with the bridge saddles being wound up to the limits of the grub screws, which looks silly and effects pickup height. That needed a reverse shim at the pocket end farthest from the bridge, which is harder to keep in place when refitting the neck.

Cut screw holes in the shim.

The Stew Mac shims have these by design.

Jimbro66

guitarfishbay said:

Jimbro66 said:

Today I had the opposite problem with the bridge saddles being wound up to the limits of the grub screws, which looks silly and effects pickup height. That needed a reverse shim at the pocket end farthest from the bridge, which is harder to keep in place when refitting the neck.

Cut screw holes in the shim.

The Stew Mac shims have these by design.

I do make holes, but when the shim is at the pocket end farthest from the bridge it means keeping the shim in place with those two screws whilst trying to fit the neck back  -  a three handed job really, but it works in the end. Shims at the bridge end of the pocket (also with holes) tend to helpfully stay in place.

Those Stew Mac shims are great. I have some somewhere. Now where did I put them...........

Bridgehouse

Jimbro66 said:

guitarfishbay said:

Jimbro66 said:

Today I had the opposite problem with the bridge saddles being wound up to the limits of the grub screws, which looks silly and effects pickup height. That needed a reverse shim at the pocket end farthest from the bridge, which is harder to keep in place when refitting the neck.

Cut screw holes in the shim.

The Stew Mac shims have these by design.

I do make holes, but when the shim is at the pocket end farthest from the bridge it means keeping the shim in place with those two screws whilst trying to fit the neck back  -  a three handed job really, but it works in the end. Shims at the bridge end of the pocket (also with holes) tend to helpfully stay in place.

Those Stew Mac shims are great. I have some somewhere. Now where did I put them...........

The stew mac shims are also full length, so you retain full contact between neck and pocket - and of course they stay in place. They now do multi-packs with different degree angles so you can set the neck angle exactly how you want it to get the saddle height bang in the middle of the adjustment range.

I fitted one of their bass ones on my 64 Precision and it was a superb fit

Jimbro66

Bridgehouse said:

Jimbro66 said:

guitarfishbay said:

Jimbro66 said:

Today I had the opposite problem with the bridge saddles being wound up to the limits of the grub screws, which looks silly and effects pickup height. That needed a reverse shim at the pocket end farthest from the bridge, which is harder to keep in place when refitting the neck.

Cut screw holes in the shim.

The Stew Mac shims have these by design.

I do make holes, but when the shim is at the pocket end farthest from the bridge it means keeping the shim in place with those two screws whilst trying to fit the neck back  -  a three handed job really, but it works in the end. Shims at the bridge end of the pocket (also with holes) tend to helpfully stay in place.

Those Stew Mac shims are great. I have some somewhere. Now where did I put them...........

The stew mac shims are also full length, so you retain full contact between neck and pocket - and of course they stay in place. They now do multi-packs with different degree angles so you can set the neck angle exactly how you want it to get the saddle height bang in the middle of the adjustment range.

I fitted one of their bass ones on my 64 Precision and it was a superb fit

Good recommendation

ICBM

Bridgehouse said:

The stew mac shims are also full length, so you retain full contact between neck and pocket

That's exactly what they *don't* do. They eliminate all contact between the neck and the pocket floor. Whether that actually matters is another question - I tend to think not as long as everything is tight, but I still don't like it.

Although I don't like full-length shims at all - in my opinion the best sound is with a simple shim at the end, made from card, fibreboard or wood veneer, and regardless that there's an air gap in the middle.

I also don't like reverse shimming - to me it makes the guitar feel and sound odd - and I would only ever use it as a temporary fix really.

Jimbro66

I also don't like reverse shimming - to me it makes the guitar feel and sound odd - and I would only ever use it as a temporary fix really.

Saddles too high is an awkward one to overcome. Agreed, reverse shimming is not a great idea but the alternatives are routing the pocket deeper or removing thickness from the neck at the blunt end. Not simple jobs and not DIY for most folk. Shimming the pocket to raise the saddles is much easier.

FWIW I've never noticed any difference in the sound of a bolt-on neck guitar when it is shimmed  -  gaps or not.

ICBM

Jimbro66 said:

Saddles too high is an awkward one to overcome. Agreed, reverse shimming is not a great idea but the alternatives are routing the pocket deeper or removing thickness from the neck at the blunt end. Not simple jobs and not DIY for most folk. Shimming the pocket to raise the saddles is much easier.

Totally agree, which is why I do use it sometimes if necessary, especially if it's temporary. Routing the neck pocket deeper is really the right way to fix it, since a properly-made Fender-style guitar should always have it deep enough in the first place - Fender intentionally designed them to be shimmed at the inner end if necessary, so the tolerances were set to "+/0" rather than "+/-" - but I know that's not always possible as a DIY job.

It may just be my imagination but I've always found reverse-shimming makes the guitar sound slightly honky as well. I don't know particularly why it should be so, or why a plain card shim with a gap sounds better than a full-length wood one either!

guitarfishbay

I've not A/B'd shim material, but I honestly think I generally prefer the end result of shimming, even if it is something I admit I could never pick out in a listening test.  It's mostly a feel thing for me, but it to my perception results in a slightly tighter response of the string, which can mean a bit less fret buzz with aggressive playing.  I found more difference in how much I preferred the end result with basses.  They didn't even need the shim, they were just better with it IMO (or for my tastes)

Bridgehouse

ICBM said:

Bridgehouse said:

The stew mac shims are also full length, so you retain full contact between neck and pocket

That's exactly what they *don't* do. They eliminate all contact between the neck and the pocket floor. Whether that actually matters is another question - I tend to think not as long as everything is tight, but I still don't like it.

Although I don't like full-length shims at all - in my opinion the best sound is with a simple shim at the end, made from card, fibreboard or wood veneer, and regardless that there's an air gap in the middle.

I also don't like reverse shimming - to me it makes the guitar feel and sound odd - and I would only ever use it as a temporary fix really.

Much as you are the font of all wisdom and knowledge and the saviour of many an amp, I actually couldn't disagree with you more.

I've had guitars and basses with short non-wood shims in, taken them out, put a full length wood shim in and they have instantly felt, played, and sounded better. 

No matter how you look at it, if you have a neck shim with an air gap, 4 screws are going to pull the neck into the pocket in a way which ultimately one way or another puts tension on one point more than others. With a full length wood shim the tension is going to be more evenly balanced. 

I really don't buy your "they eliminate all contact" - in that case a layer of paint or lacquer eliminates all contact. And a shim probably gives you about 10% of the neck actually contacting the pocket. Cork sniffing, 'magic vibration sound transfer', 'shims made of special unicorn poo' aside.. a short shim at one end of the neck pocket is just down right bad engineering.