The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

english_bob

ToneControl said:

Do you know how to get FOI data for this? 

Freedom of Information requests

HMRC FoI Act Team
Room 1C/23 
100 Parliament Street
London
SW1A 2BQ

Contact formhttps://online.hmrc.go...

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs

DarnWeight

Fretwired said:

"In order to bring a charge, it must be proved that a suspect knew the return was inaccurate and acted dishonestly in signing the declaration. Although there is evidence to suggest the returns may have been inaccurate, there is insufficient evidence to prove to the criminal standard that any candidate or agent was dishonest.

“The Act also makes it a technical offence for an election agent to fail to deliver a true return. By omitting any ‘Battle Bus’ costs, the returns may have been inaccurate. However, it is clear agents were told by Conservative Party headquarters that the costs were part of the national campaign and it would not be possible to prove any agent acted knowingly or dishonestly.

"Therefore we have concluded it is not in the public interest to charge anyone referred to us with this offence.

Just highlighted the crucial bit from the paste by @Fretwired ;

Conservative Party HQ will be framing this as a complete vindication, but the truth is that the CPS can't pin the "inaccuracies" (overspend) on individual candidates/agents with full certainty that they knowingly misrepresented the costs.  The individual candidates/agents being investigated have been put in the clear, but you can be pretty certain that HQ happily OK-ed the funds.

Given the current public disillusion with mainstream politicians and their parties, there's a definite stink about this that will still play against the Tories in some circles.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

ToneControl said:

Getting back to my point

does anyone here believe that the majority of cash that is not collected by HMRC because of tax evasion is because of "tax cheats" such as the stereotypical "Banker" or wealthy professional?

here's some evidence:

Top 3,000 earners pay more tax than the bottom 9 million
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11233686/How-top-3000-earners-pay-more-tax-than-bottom-9-million.html

Top 1% of earners pay over 25% of all income tax
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-27/u-k-s-top-1-of-earners-now-paying-a-quarter-of-all-income-tax

Top 1% of earners pay 27% of all income tax
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

That article about the top 1% of earners... is there anywhere that says what that top 1% actually earned? A breakdown of what they earned and then the amount of income tax they paid as a percentage of earnings would be interesting. 

it would
the article says HMRC provided the figures:
"The figures were disclosed in a Freedom of Information (FoI) request to the journalist Fraser Nelson as part of his investigation into growing wealth inequality in Britain. His findings will be broadcast in Channel 4’s investigations programme Dispatches, entitled How The Rich Get Richer,"

Do you know how to get FOI data for this? 

An email to the Treasury should be enough if they run similar procedures to every other GovOrg I can remember sending the bloody things too on behalf of local folk in Wiltshire. 

Interesting response from Counterfire to the Nelson study:


"The first issue is that income tax is only 26% of all government revenue whilst other taxes such as National Insurance contribute 18% and VAT contributes 17%. When you take into account these far more regressive taxes that target the poor, it turns out that the bottom 20% of all households in the UK pay 36.6% of their income in taxes, whilst the wealthiest 20% only pay 35.5% of their income in taxes, according to the Office of National Statistics[1]. This shows in fact that those with the narrowest shoulders are carrying the greatest burden. This means that tax policy is only increasing the inequality gap further.

The second key issue is that the reason these 3,000 people contribute as much income tax as the bottom nine million is the morally profane size of their income. In fact, if you wish to be in the top 0.01% or the top 3,000 earners you need a total income of over £2.7 million per year. These “top earners” have worked so hard to raise their percentage take of the economic cake that they have left so little left in the pay chest for the bottom 9 million that many are not earning enough to reach the bar which you start paying income tax."

Fretwired

DarnWeight said:

Just highlighted the crucial bit from the paste by @Fretwired ;

Conservative Party HQ will be framing this as a complete vindication, but the truth is that the CPS can't pin the "inaccuracies" (overspend) on individual candidates/agents with full certainty that they knowingly misrepresented the costs.  The individual candidates/agents being investigated have been put in the clear, but you can be pretty certain that HQ happily OK-ed the funds.

Given the current public disillusion with mainstream politicians and their parties, there's a definite stink about this that will still play against the Tories in some circles.

Sadly they are all as bad as each other ..

Lib Dems fined £20K over undeclared election spending of £185K

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/07/lib-dems-fined-20000-for-undeclared-election-spending


Labour fined £20K on undeclared election expenses of £112K, including Miliband's stone tablet

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/25/labour-fined-20000-for-undeclared-election-spending-including-for-ed-stone


I think they've all worked out they can get away with it.

DarnWeight

True, true.

I guess the timing of this, just four weeks before a snap election, may put it more to the fore than usual.  The fines usually get dished out and forgotten about later in the 4-5 year election cycle.

Fretwired

DarnWeight said:

True, true.

I guess the timing of this, just four weeks before a snap election, may put it more to the fore than usual.  The fines usually get dished out and forgotten about later in the 4-5 year election cycle.

It would make more sense to make the fine double the overspend. That might make them think twice ..

ICBM

ToneControl said:

personally I think it's immoral for the state to expect private charities to provide remedies for flaws in the provision of assistance to those who need it. A G7 country with a welfare state should have no need for such charities 

Absolutely. This was one of the principles of the welfare state as introduced by the 1945 Labour government and it is still true now. Expecting private charity to provide for the needy because the state doesn't takes us straight back to the pre-WWII era of real poverty.

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

An email to the Treasury should be enough if they run similar procedures to every other GovOrg I can remember sending the bloody things too on behalf of local folk in Wiltshire. 

Interesting response from Counterfire to the Nelson study:


"The first issue is that income tax is only 26% of all government revenue whilst other taxes such as National Insurance contribute 18% and VAT contributes 17%. When you take into account these far more regressive taxes that target the poor, it turns out that the bottom 20% of all households in the UK pay 36.6% of their income in taxes, whilst the wealthiest 20% only pay 35.5% of their income in taxes, according to the Office of National Statistics[1]. This shows in fact that those with the narrowest shoulders are carrying the greatest burden. This means that tax policy is only increasing the inequality gap further.

I'm not sure I believe those figures are very useful. I think they are derived from this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-graph-that-shows-how-the-poor-are-paying-more-than-the-rich-in-tax-10353982.html
which says that the richest 20% paid 23.5% of their income in direct taxes (incl council tax)

so, for 2014/15, the 80th percentile for gross pay was £38.5k (I have the ONS spreadsheet)
the 84th percentile is the first to pay higher rate tax - £41,865 was the threshold for higher rate tax that year

So - firstly the "wealthiest" means people with pretty ordinary salaries - who don't even pay the higher rate of income tax

those people in the 80th-84th percentile won't pay much tax overall, they are still on 20% income tax like everyone else

if we move to someone on more, in this tax year:

£100k - income tax is £28,696 + £5,524 in National Insurance, and let's assume £2k council tax, so 36.2% direct tax, not 23.5%

for £120k, - income tax is £40,696 and £5,924 in National Insurance. plus the £2k, so that's 40.5% direct tax


Anyway, if the percentage total tax were the same (which it isn't, they need to divide people on the taxbands, not on percentiles) it wouldn't show "that those with the narrowest shoulders are carrying the greatest burden" since the people with higher incomes would pay proportionately more anyway

For your statement to be true, we'd all pay a fixed poll tax, as it is, with a fixed percentage, the wealthier would pay more, but in fact they pay a higher percentage too, which is exactly what those other studies demonstrated comprehensively

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

The second key issue is that the reason these 3,000 people contribute as much income tax as the bottom nine million is the morally profane size of their income. In fact, if you wish to be in the top 0.01% or the top 3,000 earners you need a total income of over £2.7 million per year. These “top earners” have worked so hard to raise their percentage take of the economic cake that they have left so little left in the pay chest for the bottom 9 million that many are not earning enough to reach the bar which you start paying income tax."

some will have deserved it, in the nature of capitalism
some will not, because of the way many companies reward CEOs, etc in a way that is not proportional to effort or achievements. The trouble is, if you legislate to fix this, you could kill the goose that lays the golden egg (i.e. frighten off the head offices so they leave the UK). It may be better to support the shareholder revolts that are becoming more common: write to your pension fund managers!

Heartfeltdawn

Mr ToneControl:  It was a quote from the article rather than 'my statement". 

I quite agree with your figures which demonstrate one truth: it is easy to adjust figures depending on what your argument is. So the figures on each side of the fence are correct. Michael White's article was pretty decent as a reply. 

In the interests of fairness,  you thought the earlier study funded by the Trussell Trust was dodgy and biased. The C4 Dispatches programme in question was presented by the editor of the Spectator and made in cooperation with the Centre for Social Justice. It's therefore fair to say that the programme was unlikely to ever come down hard on anyone other than the red side. 

capo4th

Everyone needs to pay a fair share of tax and contribute to society.

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

I pay a shed load in tax and give to charity, contribute to society etc giving something back in the local community, being a good citizen etc.

I look at my monthly tax bill and just see it being squandered by wasters. 

If we overtax people they they will leave unfortunately I am not in a position to do that and don't consider myself rich. What happened to people having aspiration and achievement? 

Sambostar

capo4th said:

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

Can you stop with the bigoted stereotyping?  Maybe for an old duffer who got the right to buy his council house back in the late 80's or the pikeys but the banks have the majority of us by the balls, of you don't declare you can't get a mortgage.  That said though, drug dealers always choose to rent.  Anyway, `if it bothers you so much why don't you try going self employed?  The self employed don't moan about people on PAYE.  It's your choice and apparently the grass is greener according to you.

ThePrettyDamned

capo4th said:

Everyone needs to pay a fair share of tax and contribute to society.

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

I pay a shed load in tax and give to charity, contribute to society etc giving something back in the local community, being a good citizen etc.

I look at my monthly tax bill and just see it being squandered by wasters. 

If we overtax people they they will leave unfortunately I am not in a position to do that and don't consider myself rich. What happened to people having aspiration and achievement? 

Question, if someone insisted you pay cash for work done (for example, an electrician or car mechanic) would you comply or insist on electronic payment or find someone else? 

I've never (literally not once) been asked to pay cash bar my local tandoori which was cash only for the first few months of opening. 

capo4th

Sambostar said:

capo4th said:

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

Can you stop with the bigoted stereotyping?  Maybe for an old duffer who got the right to buy his council house back in the late 80's or the pikeys but the banks have the majority of us by the balls, of you don't declare you can't get a mortgage.  That said though, drug dealers always choose to rent.  Anyway, `if it bothers you so much why don't you try going self employed?  The self employed don't moan about people on PAYE.  It's your choice and apparently the grass is greener according to you.

Easy tiger not really sure I understood anything you meant there.

Why would I go self employed when I have a good job?

I was complaining about builders and plumbers who under declare their income and cheat the treasury out of tax. 

Whats wrong with stereotyping?  

Philly_Q

ToneControl said:

Getting back to my point

does anyone here believe that the majority of cash that is not collected by HMRC because of tax evasion is because of "tax cheats" such as the stereotypical "Banker" or wealthy professional?

So, do any of you guys know anyone who works cash-in-hand, and declares their income truthfully to HMRC?

I don't like to get too involved in these political threads - some of you guys are far, far better informed than I am and much, much better at debating.  And frankly you have have a remarkable willingness to type lots of extremely long posts.  I don't.

But this reminded me of one little incident earlier this year.  I got a guy in to replace a leaky roof on a bay window, I think it cost about £850.  When he sent me the quote I asked if it included VAT and the reply was no, we're not VAT registered.  

The work took less than a day, for the best part of £1,000, and yet apparently they don't make enough in a year to cross the VAT registration threshold of £83,000?

capo4th

ThePrettyDamned said:

capo4th said:

Everyone needs to pay a fair share of tax and contribute to society.

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

I pay a shed load in tax and give to charity, contribute to society etc giving something back in the local community, being a good citizen etc.

I look at my monthly tax bill and just see it being squandered by wasters. 

If we overtax people they they will leave unfortunately I am not in a position to do that and don't consider myself rich. What happened to people having aspiration and achievement? 

Question, if someone insisted you pay cash for work done (for example, an electrician or car mechanic) would you comply or insist on electronic payment or find someone else? 

I've never (literally not once) been asked to pay cash bar my local tandoori which was cash only for the first few months of opening. 

Having renovated two houses using a multitude of tradesman I always offer to pay in cash to get a better price and it is always gratefully received by said tradesmen. 

The curry house are also a bunch of tax dodgers and love a bit of cash.

capo4th

Philly_Q said:

ToneControl said:

Getting back to my point

does anyone here believe that the majority of cash that is not collected by HMRC because of tax evasion is because of "tax cheats" such as the stereotypical "Banker" or wealthy professional?

So, do any of you guys know anyone who works cash-in-hand, and declares their income truthfully to HMRC?

I don't like to get too involved in these political threads - some of you guys are far, far better informed than I am and much, much better at debating.  And frankly you have have a remarkable willingness to type lots of extremely long posts.  I don't.

But this reminded me of one little incident earlier this year.  I got a guy in to replace a leaky roof on a bay window, I think it cost about £850.  When he sent me the quote I asked if it included VAT and the reply was no, we're not VAT registered.  

The work took less than a day, for the best part of £1,000, and yet apparently they don't make enough in a year to cross the VAT registration threshold of £83,000?

I rest my case it  goes on everyday in every town in every street.

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

Mr ToneControl:  It was a quote from the article rather than 'my statement". 

I quite agree with your figures which demonstrate one truth: it is easy to adjust figures depending on what your argument is. So the figures on each side of the fence are correct. Michael White's article was pretty decent as a reply. 

In the interests of fairness,  you thought the earlier study funded by the Trussell Trust was dodgy and biased. The C4 Dispatches programme in question was presented by the editor of the Spectator and made in cooperation with the Centre for Social Justice. It's therefore fair to say that the programme was unlikely to ever come down hard on anyone other than the red side. 

No, I just thought the Trussell fund research was pointless, but that explanation of why it was politically expedient at the time sounds plausible.
I do think that researchers lay themselves open to charges of partiality when they are clearly taking on a funded bit of work to back up someone else's opinion, but I imagine the study was accurate. For myself it seemed about as useful as doing research to prove that most people on benefits have prepaid electricity meters.

ThePrettyDamned

capo4th said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

capo4th said:

Everyone needs to pay a fair share of tax and contribute to society.

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

I pay a shed load in tax and give to charity, contribute to society etc giving something back in the local community, being a good citizen etc.

I look at my monthly tax bill and just see it being squandered by wasters. 

If we overtax people they they will leave unfortunately I am not in a position to do that and don't consider myself rich. What happened to people having aspiration and achievement? 

Question, if someone insisted you pay cash for work done (for example, an electrician or car mechanic) would you comply or insist on electronic payment or find someone else? 

I've never (literally not once) been asked to pay cash bar my local tandoori which was cash only for the first few months of opening. 

Having renovated two houses using a multitude of tradesman I always offer to pay in cash to get a better price and it is always gratefully received by said tradesmen. 

The curry house are also a bunch of tax dodgers and love a bit of cash.

So you agree that you're a part of, and complicit to, the problem. 

And complain about it. Well, so long as it saves you a bit of money...? I don't understand your complaint. 

ToneControl

ThePrettyDamned said:

capo4th said:

Everyone needs to pay a fair share of tax and contribute to society.

Have you noticed many self employed types always pay in cash and never on a card which tells you all you need to know.

I pay a shed load in tax and give to charity, contribute to society etc giving something back in the local community, being a good citizen etc.

I look at my monthly tax bill and just see it being squandered by wasters. 

If we overtax people they they will leave unfortunately I am not in a position to do that and don't consider myself rich. What happened to people having aspiration and achievement? 

Question, if someone insisted you pay cash for work done (for example, an electrician or car mechanic) would you comply or insist on electronic payment or find someone else? 

I've never (literally not once) been asked to pay cash bar my local tandoori which was cash only for the first few months of opening. 

you must live a sheltered life, plenty of people insist on cash

I know people who won't use any cards, or reward cards, won't buy online, put their house in their spouse's name, etc.
There really are plenty of working class people paying no or little tax, or to me far worse: claiming tax credits whilst not declaring quite significant incomes. This was why I was annoyed at Corbyn's "tax cheats" comment