Manchester Arena explosion.

Rocker

Do we know for certain that this outrage was carried out by fanatic(s) on religious grounds? It very likely was but until we know for certain, it is best to keep an open mind.

On the subject of religions and specifically Islam, a big problem with Islam is that there is no supreme authority on Islam. No authority that says this is how we live or the sacred text means that. Local clerics interpret the texts and the result is chaos. As I understand it, Islam is a peaceful religion, a number of fanatics want to portray it otherwise. And the fanatics are winning that battle.

ToneControl

Snap said:

99% of Muslims no doubt abhor extremism: stand up and be seen to fight it. Otherwise you will be victimised by knee jerk reactions of ignorant angry people.

sorry, not 99%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

In Germany, 83% of Muslims opposed killing civilians this way, but this drops to only 28% in Nigeria

In a 2007 Pew Research poll in response to a question on whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified,[31] in Europe:

• (36 vs 64) 64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

• (30 vs 70) 70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (17 vs 83) 83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

In mainly Muslim countries:

• (55 vs 45) 45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (39 vs 61) 61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (57 vs 43) 43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.

• (72 vs 28) 28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.

• (29 vs 71) 71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.

are you still feeling confident that 99% of Muslims oppose this form of killing? 

digitalscream

Rocker said:

Do we know for certain that this outrage was carried out by fanatic(s) on religious grounds? It very likely was but until we know for certain, it is best to keep an open mind.

On the subject of religions and specifically Islam, a big problem with Islam is that there is no supreme authority on Islam. No authority that says this is how we live or the sacred text means that. Local clerics interpret the texts and the result is chaos. As I understand it, Islam is a peaceful religion, a number of fanatics want to portray it otherwise. And the fanatics are winning that battle.

Not a lot's been released other than his name and the fact that he's of Libyan descent - no evidence has been released that puts him as part of an organised network of any kind thus far. I'm not counting the IS claim of responsibility as evidence, because they'd happily take "credit" for anything like this.

beed84

Utterly sickening news, from every angle. Thoughts are with the families of the victims.

CabbageCat

ToneControl said:

Snap said:

99% of Muslims no doubt abhor extremism: stand up and be seen to fight it. Otherwise you will be victimised by knee jerk reactions of ignorant angry people.

sorry, not 99%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

In Germany, 83% of Muslims opposed killing civilians this way, but this drops to only 28% in Nigeria

In a 2007 Pew Research poll in response to a question on whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified,[31] in Europe:

• (36 vs 64) 64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

• (30 vs 70) 70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (17 vs 83) 83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

In mainly Muslim countries:

• (55 vs 45) 45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (39 vs 61) 61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (57 vs 43) 43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.

• (72 vs 28) 28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.

• (29 vs 71) 71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.

are you still feeling confident that 99% of Muslims oppose this form of killing? 

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

ToneControl

Snap said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I don't have any answers. But you should understand, I am not saying this is a 'Muslim' problem. I am saying it is an 'Islam' problem,

The two are inseparable: a muslim is someone who follows Islam. Same thing.

I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

Islamic terrorism will not be dealt with until Muslim communities attempt to clear it out. You go to Bradford, Oldham, Blackburn, Rochdale or anywhere where there is a substantial segregated muslim community and they all have pockets (some very large) of extremism. This is in islamic schools, or mosques, or in prayer groups led by radical Imams. The communties know about this, but feel (for whatever reasons) unable or unwilling to deal with it. Until this inertia is dealt with, very little will change.

The threat to us living here is from British radicalised muslims. Until we address the roots and causes of this radicalisation, horrors like the MEN, Westminster, Bataclan will keep happening. The roots are in the communities, centred round a few sceptic clerics and radicals.

I suspect it will be similar to Northern Ireland, the religious communities hosting the extremists have to be so sickened and appalled that they start to reject the hatred that has been propagated within their own tribe.

Personally, I suspect that we're going to see retaliations if this carries on, there's always someone angry and mad who can get fired up, and these kinds of massacres must increase the possibility

Irish Catholics had a tough time in Birmingham in the 70s, for example

tone1

Had we lived up North my 14 year old Daughter would of definitely been there..she loves all the live music, Big Weekend stuff etc..Horrific, just Horrific..I've been meaning to post something all day but I had nothing in me for hours....just loathing.

Ravenous

CabbageCat said:

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

Dresden, Hiroshima, the crusades, who knows what else....

Some of the people here and elsewhere, blaming someone else's culture, clawing for figures and arguments to support the view, and forgetting the past of our own.... well somehow it strikes me as highly questionable.

ToneControl

CabbageCat said:

ToneControl said:

Snap said:

99% of Muslims no doubt abhor extremism: stand up and be seen to fight it. Otherwise you will be victimised by knee jerk reactions of ignorant angry people.

sorry, not 99%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

In Germany, 83% of Muslims opposed killing civilians this way, but this drops to only 28% in Nigeria

In a 2007 Pew Research poll in response to a question on whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified,[31] in Europe:

• (36 vs 64) 64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

• (30 vs 70) 70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (17 vs 83) 83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

In mainly Muslim countries:

• (55 vs 45) 45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (39 vs 61) 61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (57 vs 43) 43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.

• (72 vs 28) 28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.

• (29 vs 71) 71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.

are you still feeling confident that 99% of Muslims oppose this form of killing? 

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

the question they were asked was 

whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified

how many would sanction bombing civilians to "defend Christianity"? 

Anyway, there has been loads of research
typically between 8% and 20% of Muslims actually support IS / Daesh
I could look up the source again if you have your doubts

digitalscream

Ravenous said:

CabbageCat said:

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

Dresden, Hiroshima, the crusades, who knows what else....

Some of the people here and elsewhere, blaming someone else's culture, clawing for figures and arguments to support the view, and forgetting the past of our own.... well somehow it strikes me as highly questionable.

That's my position, but only in the sense that we're supposed to learn from it.

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

Garthy

Ravenous said:

CabbageCat said:

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

Dresden, Hiroshima, the crusades, who knows what else....

Some of the people here and elsewhere, blaming someone else's culture, clawing for figures and arguments to support the view, and forgetting the past of our own.... well somehow it strikes me as highly questionable.

And we moved on from firebombing entire cities and crusading. 

GoldenEraGuitars

ToneControl said:

Cirrus said:

I've spent a bit of time trying to understand the modern issue of Islamic extremism. Unlike Drew and others here, I don't think it's a Muslim problem as most Muslims condemn such acts and are decent people. I think it's a human problem, manifesting in some of the cultures, where Islam happens to be the dominant religion, which have survived through European colonialism and the expansion of western ideas. All humans everywhere feel that their culture is normal and decent, and where other cultures' attitudes and beliefs differ from your own, those differences are wrong or even evil. This naturally leads to conflict, and that's evident through all of history. We also have the idea that whatever society we've grown up in is naturally right, or at least heading in the right direction. So we have an innate sense of our own superiority when faced with people who don't think like us.

I've felt both angry and a bit teary today too, 

I'm not sure about your analysis though. Religions facilitate this type of behaviour, this is a fact. Christianity is not as bad as it used to be for this.

Find me a Muslim who believes that the crusades were "not a Christian problem"

I believe these are all facts:

• Daesh and its followers entirely base their behaviour on the Quran, and the notion of a Caliphate
• Contrary to common misconception, the areas causing the most trouble today were part of a massive Muslim Empire: the Ottoman empire, until WW1, the culture there was not caused by European Empires
• Some Muslim teachers instruct followers that Islam endorses and rewards this kind of murderer.
• Surveys found that 17% - 70% of Muslims believe that suicide bombers killing civilians is justifiable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

But this is not a Muslim problem?

How many Christians or atheists do you know who think that bombing civilians can be justified?

Ask Bush and Blair...

fftc

digitalscream said:

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

I don't think the west has gotten away from it yet.
Certainly doesn't look like it from viewing US and British foreign policy over the last few years.

Garthy

digitalscream said:

Ravenous said:

CabbageCat said:

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

Dresden, Hiroshima, the crusades, who knows what else....

Some of the people here and elsewhere, blaming someone else's culture, clawing for figures and arguments to support the view, and forgetting the past of our own.... well somehow it strikes me as highly questionable.

That's my position, but only in the sense that we're supposed to learn from it.

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

Because the extremists are quite happy to embrace the 21st century when it suits them. 

CabbageCat

ToneControl said:

CabbageCat said:

ToneControl said:

Snap said:

99% of Muslims no doubt abhor extremism: stand up and be seen to fight it. Otherwise you will be victimised by knee jerk reactions of ignorant angry people.

sorry, not 99%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism

In Germany, 83% of Muslims opposed killing civilians this way, but this drops to only 28% in Nigeria

In a 2007 Pew Research poll in response to a question on whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified,[31] in Europe:

• (36 vs 64) 64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

• (30 vs 70) 70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (17 vs 83) 83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.

In mainly Muslim countries:

• (55 vs 45) 45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (39 vs 61) 61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.

• (57 vs 43) 43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.

• (72 vs 28) 28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.

• (31 vs 69) 69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.

• (29 vs 71) 71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.

are you still feeling confident that 99% of Muslims oppose this form of killing? 

Saying that something can be justified is hardly the same thing as supporting it.

As a rule of thumb I don't approve of civilian killings but I can certainly think of occasions where I would think they could be justified.

the question they were asked was 

whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified

how many would sanction bombing civilians to "defend Christianity"? 

You're the guy with the stats, you tell me. I suspect not many in the UK since we are a very secular country. Change "Christianity" to "Englishness" or "The Western Way" and I think the numbers might go up.

What your numbers do suggest, though, is that at least 80% of Muslims oppose Daesh. I wonder how much higher that number would be if so many non-Muslims hadn't blamed all Muslims for the actions of a tiny handful.

Ravenous

fftc said:

digitalscream said:

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

I don't think the west has gotten away from it yet.
Certainly doesn't look like it from viewing US and British foreign policy over the last few years.

I tend to agree. I know it's a bit lefty and fashionable, but I am still troubled by our instinct to either overrun and occupy other countries, or to buy their businesses out, interfere with their food markets and generally keep them down to make a few quid.

(Sorry I've gone well off the topic, but I'm finding the blame culture on this thread a bit hard to take right now.)

Lewy

ToneControl said:

the question they were asked was 

whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified

how many would sanction bombing civilians to "defend Christianity"? 

If there was a perceived existential threat to Christianity?Are you kidding.... f***ing LOADS!!

Ravenous

digitalscream said:

Ravenous said:

Dresden, Hiroshima, the crusades, who knows what else....

Some of the people here and elsewhere, blaming someone else's culture, clawing for figures and arguments to support the view, and forgetting the past of our own.... well somehow it strikes me as highly questionable.

That's my position, but only in the sense that we're supposed to learn from it.

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

True. Maybe we should be helping them, not pushing them back.

(Not aimed at you directly. I'm just genuinely wondering if there's anything the better people here can do now to make a difference.)

ToneControl

lonestar said:

How many Christians or atheists do you know who think that bombing civilians can be justified?

Ask Bush and Blair...

to defend Christianity, I should have added - which would be the equivalent question

digitalscream

fftc said:

digitalscream said:

Consider this: it took the Western world's religions centuries to get away from the our-way-or-die approach. What on earth makes people think that the extreme ends of Islam are going to get there in a decade or two?

I don't think the west has gotten away from it yet.
Certainly doesn't look like it from viewing US and British foreign policy over the last few years.

Of course we haven't - however, our religions are no longer the source of the foreign policy. That goes to my central point: for religions (of any kind), change is glacial and measured in generations, or even centuries. For democratic politics, it's measured in 4-5 year terms.

The net result of that is that we - as a society - can develop and adapt much quicker when we're honest about the source of our actions. If we say "It's because god says so!" then we're buggered because we have to wait for accepted translations of the Unchanging Eternal Word of God to change enough that we can re-interpret them to be less murder-y; that usually involves all the people who adhere strictly to that interpretation to die, and then all their students to die too.

If, on the other hand, we say "Yeah, we want to do this because our politics say so" then it's pretty easy to get rid when that doesn't work - just vote somebody else in next time. We did this rather recently, if you recall.