Mystery string breaking problem - any ideas?

Voxman

Now I come to think of it, I seem to recall that there may have been a thread on here regarding a similar issue with this type of locking Grover? 

Did a quick search on the internet - looks like I'm not the only one having this problem!  Yup, must be the tuner;
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/grover-locking-tuners-and-string-breakages.1410525/

https://forum.guitar.com/tech-bench-3/grover-locking-tuners-sharp-edges-140007


http://www.mylespaul.com/threads/e-string-problem-with-grover-tuners.180600/

And I think I found the thread:
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/34798/grover-locking-tuners-slipping-breaking-top-e

Voxman

ICBM said:

Swap the E and B tuners - if the breakage moves to the B string you'll know for sure. Or if you can't be bothered and just want to fix it, swap it for say the D tuner (not sure if they have staggered heights on your guitar) - that kind of sharp edge won't usually break a wound string.

No, they're not staggered - I can't see any screws - how do I take the tuners off to swap them?

Sassafras

Voxman said:

Sassafras said:

Voxman said:

I just realised that I hadn't put the strings through the string retainers (original 010 was) - that couldn't account for it could it? 

I reckon it could easily account for it.

Why?

Because as you close the case it could be pressing down on the string and catching the string tree.

cbilly22

Voxman said:

ICBM said:

Swap the E and B tuners - if the breakage moves to the B string you'll know for sure. Or if you can't be bothered and just want to fix it, swap it for say the D tuner (not sure if they have staggered heights on your guitar) - that kind of sharp edge won't usually break a wound string.

No, they're not staggered - I can't see any screws - how do I take the tuners off to swap them?

Unscrew the nut on the front of the headstock and they will come off with a little wiggle or a very gentle tap.

ICBM

Voxman said:

No, they're not staggered - I can't see any screws - how do I take the tuners off to swap them?

Undo the hex nut collar on the front. Ideally you need a ring spanner or a socket set, a plain spanner can often chew the edges of the nut.

Voxman

ICBM said:

Voxman said:

No, they're not staggered - I can't see any screws - how do I take the tuners off to swap them?

Undo the hex nut collar on the front. Ideally you need a ring spanner or a socket set, a plain spanner can often chew the edges of the nut.

Thanks, I'll certainly try it.  The only thought on this is that swapping tuners may not fix the problem - a thicker string may have created a burr on that tuner that might even be worse.  I'm wondering if it might be best to smooth round where the string/cap holes are. What tool would I need to do that such that I fix the problem but don't damage the tuner?  

ICBM

A small round needle file.

Have a good look and see if you can see a burr first - you could also make it worse by filing if it isn't the problem.

Funkfingers

crunchman said:

Do you leave the trem arm in when you put it in the case?  If you do, is there any chance that there is pressure on the trem arm pulling the strings really sharp and putting extra tension on them?

If the arm is left in and aimed towards the headstock, closing the lid onto it would send the strings slack. Opening the case lid frees the arm and bridge to suddenly return to pitch with a jerk. This movement could momentarily introduce excess tension. The weakest element in the balance of tension is the thinnest string. Hey, presto. Snap!

*

I have a Pacifica 311H - the 611H's budget little brother. Despite being hardtail, this model is equipped with the exact same locking Grovers. These have never given me snapping issues but, in the early days of ownership, I did experience string slippage. The stringing hole in each post is drilled off centre. The little instruction card tied to the headstock explained that the hole should be aligned with its offset to the right as viewed from the bridge. Doing this the wrong way around obliges the string to make a sharper bend where it leaves the post. This very probably introduces metal fatigue in any incorrectly installed string.

*

Neither of my suggestions explain why the string fails somewhere between the 'head post and the string guide. 

Voxman

This is a blessed nuisance as until I'm confident this is fixed I can't trust the guitar.  I'll swap the tuners around when I have time but won't be this weekend.  This is a damned stupid locking design, and according to my net research has been causing a lot of problems (see some of the links posted earlier - & there are loads more)!  Grovers have a good name so when I saw the guitar was fitted with locking Grovers I thought it was a god thing - but with this version of tuner I was clearly wrong! 

I believe JHS are the UK distributors for Grover machines in the UK so I've dropped them a line on this.  Does anyone know where Grovers are manufactured and where their head office or main customer services team are based?  Regardless of how many happy users there may be, this problem simply should not happen.

olafgarten

Are you sure it is the tuners, if it is breaking away from the tuner it is most likely something else. 

As mentioned before it could be the string tree or the Trem breaking it.

ICBM

It can't be the trem breaking it. Even if the arm was fitted so it pulls the bridge back when the case is closed, firstly it wouldn't pull the string up by more than about a tone - well within the range you can bend it normally without it breaking - and secondly the string wouldn't consistently break at the same place that isn't one of the contact points.

timmysoft

Brexit. Its breaking strings all over the place.

rico

That is incredibly annoying. Have you tried other brands of string? How about the EB Paradigm strings that are supposedly unbreakable?

Voxman

olafgarten said: no

Are you sure it is the tuners, if it is breaking away from the tuner it is most likely something else. 

As mentioned before it could be the string tree or the Trem breaking it.

Yes, def the tuner. Can't be string tree as (a) lower and (b) I didn't use the string tree as per earlier post.  And def not the trem.

Funkfingers

Voxman said:

Here's a pic of the 611 in the Hiscox case - headstock is no-where near the case lining.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/voxman5/ADVENT-PC/IMG_20170517_143439368_zpspy9ib587.jpg

Your photograph appears to show a section of the bottom surface of the case lining between the Pacifica's mildly offset lower bout and the Stratocaster outline provided by Hiscox. 

How snugly does the Pacifica upper horn fit into the Stratocaster outline moulding? Is the Pacifica body free to slide lengthways in the case? There should be no tilting or end to end slop. If the guitar body is secured in the usual Hiscox manner, there should be no need for an extra pad of foam in the headstock area.

HAL9000

If you weren't originally using the string tree could closing the case have been pushing the string against the tree and introducing a kink or a weak point in the string?

Voxman

Its the tuner. 

Sassafras

No-one ever suspects the tuner.
  

Funkfingers

So, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Grover has devised a locking machinehead with an invisible force field that mysteriously fatigues steel within a half inch radius. Fascinating.

Voxman

Funkfingers said: by

So, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Grover has devised a locking machinehead with an invisible force field that mysteriously fatigues steel within a half inch radius. Fascinating.

Yup, there's a Horizon special on this next week!  Its a string theory special.