Dual amp/ Stereo setup experiences/ views and a thought about volume

Cirrus

I must admit to being something of a hypocrite in this thread. Because I've gigged stereo ( 2x AC30s, always on), Dual Mono (AC30 and Vox Night Train, always on), and A/B/Y Setups (AC30 for clean, Mesa Tremoverb or AC100cph for dirt, Y for solo boosts) in the past and pretty much came to the conclusion that it was more hassle than it was worth. Why? Because soundmen were often lazy/ unable to deal with it, some PA's were mono, it was extra stuff to carry. And I've expressed that view in forums over the last 5 years or so.

But then, obviously, I've lost some brain cells or forgot that lesson. Because last month I wired my board up for stereo outputs and tried it out with an AC30 2x12 and Genz Benz Black Pearl 1x12 (if anyone's wondering, this is the reason - along with no bastard buying it before that point I suppose - that I decided to keep the Genz Benz   ) and it's glorious. Such a cool sound that going back to one amp or the other just feels *lesser*.




Especially in a one-guitar band as I am, having two similar but not identical amps makes the sound bigger and richer while still having a definite character - any time I've tried two very different sounding amps at the same time it's sounded strange to me.

I'm definitely going to try gigging this.

After a few practices with it, though, I have an observation;

If you get the first amp set to a level that makes sense for the situation (for me that means balanced with a fairly hard-hitting drummer) then add the second amp on top of that, it's WAY, WAY LOUDER. Perceptually, much louder than the difference between full and half power on amps that offer that facility!

If you keep both amps at the same volume and bring them both down to a level where their combined output is suitable for the situation, each amp alone is surprisingly quiet. I think most people are au fait with the idea that doubling the amp power doesn't give you double the volume, but with two separate amps it feels much closer to that.

So, each amp is being run with the preamp volume barely cracked open - the Vox has no master, and the Black Pearl has the master cranked. The result is a clean, clean sound, lots of clean headroom, so that there's no amp crunch/ compression in the clean tone.

But the advantage offsets that massively - the pair of amps run this way absolutely destroy with pedals, with a huge, thick and articulate sound staying punchy and clear. I was genuinely taken aback - they still have that EL84/cathode bias character, but stomp on a heavy distortion and it's, for my taste at least, hugely gratifying - I'd even be happy playing RATM/ Deftones style riffs through this setup.

All of which I find interesting, because it lends credence to the idea that when we talk about loud valve amps sounding great, that amps have a "sweet spot", we like to think we're reacting to the tone and feel of the amp, rather than the sheer volume level pummeling our ears. the latter sounds self-centred/egotistical (to me, at least), while the former makes the high volume seem like a necessary evil to get the sound.

And yet, here I have two amps, each of which in isolation is running at a modest volume. If I was just running through one of them, I'd feel like I was struggling with an anemic, plinky clean tone and that I needed to turn up to deliver the goods. Yet take that same basic tone, make it twice as loud, and suddenly the clean sound is big, glassy, dynamic and rich and it takes pedals better than anything else I've used in the past.

The volume alone makes a massive difference.

Anyway, that's my thought for the day.  Anyone else use/ used a stereo rig? Unlike when I tried it 5 years ago, I'm looking forward to unleashing this setup on soundmen. 

Danny1969

My rig with Superheroes is stereo, but I use the stereo in a different way with the dry side miced and the wet side acting as the stage sound for the singer. He's not in IEM's, everyone else is.
Setup in this way I can turn up the stage volume for him without the level going up in everyones IEM's and the soundman can stick his own effects on as they are constantly tap tempo'ed by him 

Years ago I gigged an AC30 alongside an AD120VT ..... mainly to see how close the modelling amp was to the real thing and the answer was pretty dam close to be honest.

Many years ago a lot of guys gigged 2 amps with the 2nd amp coming of the stereo delay output from a Boss delay, then you setup a short delay and put one amp either side of the stage. That sounded massive 

I can't bear to hear it now but for about 5 years in the hair metal days I used a Fender Princeton Chorus stereo amp into 2 x 4 x 12"'s either side of the stage ..... then you shorted the neg terminals together to create a massive wide chorus with a load more gain. We loved it back then, makes me shudder now !

guitarmangler

I've always loved playing into amps, one set clean and the dirty so that I could swap between the sounds with delay trails going etc with the push of one button.
I've always hated bringing two amps ( because I'm lazy) and then being thwarted by an equally lazy sound man, and then you think why bother?
To get that type of sound from one amp was a pain, and involved a lot of 'stuff' on the floor, which I hated (because I'm lazy.

My solution now involves a yamaha thr100hd which is two amps in one box, so I can just pan between them both with a volume pedal using 2x12. 
But, crucially, it offers dual xlr outs ( and a headphone out) with loadable ir cabs. So when matey on sound wonders over trying to dangle his sm58 at the floor, I can just plug the lead(s)into the back and know I'm getting a good sound from both of the amps FOH.

If I were you, I'd be inclined to get a couple of h and k red boxes or something and some type of mini mixer just and take control of the soundman equation. 

ICBM

One with all Mullard valves (ECC83, EL34, GZ34) and the other with all GE (12AX7 & 12AT7, 6L6, 5V4) - so one was more 'Marshally' and the other more 'Fendery', but recognisably the same amps.

Sounded HUGE. Weighed rather a lot too…

Never gigged this set-up, it was just too much. One was more than enough to move.

Both gone now.

earwighoney

ICBM said:

One with all Mullard valves (ECC83, EL34, GZ34) and the other with all GE (12AX7 & 12AT7, 6L6, 5V4) - so one was more 'Marshally' and the other more 'Fendery', but recognisably the same amps.

Sounded HUGE. Weighed rather a lot too…

Never gigged this set-up, it was just too much. One was more than enough to move.

Both gone now.

What a set up! 

My credit would be crying at the prospects of those valve replacements!  

ICBM

earwighoney said:

What a set up! 

My credit would be crying at the prospects of those valve replacements!  

I was lucky in that they were all ones I'd acquired before NOS valves became really expensive. No way I could justify spending that much on valves now.

What was interesting is that even with the supposedly very different voicings of those valves, with the amps set for a 'neutral' sound there was very little difference between them. It was only when you tried to make them sound deliberately more Marshally or Fendery that the difference became more obvious.

Gadget

How exactly are you connecting everything up?

Dominic

Amazing to think it can all be done now with one little Helix and a pair of speakers ! and you can swap out each amp for a totally different combo at a flick of the toe !

Cirrus

Gadget said:

How exactly are you connecting everything up?

I'm splitting it with a Zoom MS-70CDR, mono in stereo out, into the stereo ins of a Korg SDD-3000 then stereo out to the pair of amps (with a little patch box in between to make the connections coming out the pedalboard neater) . Courtesy of @chugington , there's an Axess Electronics Buffer/splitter just before the input of one of the amps to break the resulting ground loop.

Cirrus

Danny1969 said:

Many years ago a lot of guys gigged 2 amps with the 2nd amp coming of the stereo delay output from a Boss delay, then you setup a short delay and put one amp either side of the stage. That sounded massive 

Something I'm quite chuffed about with the pedalboard setup is that there's a normalised patch point after the drives and before the stereo stuff, so if I ever play a stage big enough, I could run the dry out to the middle amp, send the signal back to the pedalboard for stereo stuff, then send L+R to two other amps for the wet stuff.

Totally impractical for about 99% of the gigs I've ever played but the idea tickles me.

guitarmangler said:

I've always loved playing into amps, one set clean and the dirty so that I could swap between the sounds with delay trails going etc with the push of one button.

The thing that always confused my brain when I tried Clean/dirty A/B setups, is that when I switch to the second amp which has a totally different sounds, cab resonances, EQ, dynamic response, and is coming from a different place, I couldn't shake the feeling that it sounded like one guitarist had walked off the stage and a totally different one had came on and replaced him. 

That's just how it felt for me as a player, Ofc, not saying it wouldn't be wicked in the right hands! 

@ICBM  I remember when you first posted that picture, I thought you could go and join an Incubus tribute band (I assume they're not your style at all, but 2x Tremoverbs is the guitarist's typical rig).

Gadget

I haven't observed this volume problem, but my connections are quite different...

I send guitar --> pedalboard pre effects (ie: wah, comp, ODs, distortion, etc).
Then pre effects mono output --> to the guitar input of the amp whose preamp I want to use.
FX loop send on that amp --> pedalboard post effects input in mono (chorus, mods, delay, reverb).
Stereo outs from post pedals --> Left and Right amps' FX loop returns.

professorben

Not to derail, but has anyone tried Wet/Dry in a single cab? Thinking 4x12

Alnico

I am very soon going to try a Boss GT100 out to two Marshall CODE 25's.

Nice simple set up but I can't wait to hear how it sounds.
In my mind, I'm thinking of a different amp model either side and then run just effects from the GT100.

The CODE 25 is so small and light, I'm really hoping it gets enough volume to be able to keep up with a band at a jam night and sound awesome.
I admit it might not do that but they're cheap enough and at home, it's definitely going to look and sound great.