Tokai Firebird question

HAL9000

After seeing film of Clapton playing one, I'm quite fancying the idea of a Firebird 1, although it will probably never happen.

Now I see Tokai do a single-pickup Firebird at not too steep a price. However, the headstock angle on Tokais is 18 degrees as opposed to 17 on a Gibson, or 14 (I think) on an Epiphone. Does this mean that the Tokai would be even more susceptible to headstock breaks than the comparable Gibson?

ICBM

Is it scarf jointed? If so the angle is much less important. My guess is that on a cheaper guitar it will be, since making it from a single piece - or even a multi-piece laminate like the Gibson - is very wasteful of wood on something with as long a head as that.

If it is scarf-jointed, check that it's the better type where the headstock piece runs up under the fingerboard, rather than the one where there is a horizontal joint around the low E machinehead.

If it's not scarf-jointed at all I would pass. Firebirds do break even more easily than most other Gibsons, it has to be said. (There's one in the shop right now with a previous break.)

57Deluxe

Yep - always fancied one like Manzanera's...

WezV

i made one once and get loads of requests to do another, but the mood hasn't taken me yet.   There is clearly a market for them though so i wouldn't be surprised if gibson pick up on this sooner or later

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/complete guitars/fb11.jpg

the old gibson ones do seem to break really easily which is unusual for laminated neck construction.  original FB1's often only have 3 neck laminates rather than the 9 seen above which is usually saved for the higher numbered models.   Its the 9 laminate ones i have seen break before.  

i don't think 1 degree will make much difference between the tokai and gibson, not if everything else it equal.  the large headstock design with stupidly heavy tuners on an already neck heavy shape is what leads  to the common break on these

HAL9000

WezV - that does look rather good

ESchap

WezV said:

i made one once and get loads of requests to do another, but the mood hasn't taken me yet.   There is clearly a market for them though so i wouldn't be surprised if gibson pick up on this sooner or later

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/complete guitars/fb11.jpg

the old gibson ones do seem to break really easily which is unusual for laminated neck construction.  original FB1's often only have 3 neck laminates rather than the 9 seen above which is usually saved for the higher numbered models.   Its the 9 laminate ones i have seen break before.  

i don't think 1 degree will make much difference between the tokai and gibson, not if everything else it equal.  the large headstock design with stupidly heavy tuners on an already neck heavy shape is what leads  to the common break on these

Add me to the queue please when you do decide to make more ... that looks fantastic!

ICBM

WezV said:

the old gibson ones do seem to break really easily which is unusual for laminated neck construction.  original FB1's often only have 3 neck laminates rather than the 9 seen above which is usually saved for the higher numbered models.   Its the 9 laminate ones i have seen break before.  

i don't think 1 degree will make much difference between the tokai and gibson, not if everything else it equal.  the large headstock design with stupidly heavy tuners on an already neck heavy shape is what leads  to the common break on these

I don't think the laminating helps much really, since it's parallel-grain so the difference in weakness lines between the pieces is minimal. All it does is make the break shatter rather than split cleanly…

If anything is a candidate for a scarf joint, it's these.

stickyfiddle

I've said it before and I'll say it again; @WezV if you ever fancy making a Firebird III I'll happily pay proper money

WezV

ICBM said:

WezV said:

the old gibson ones do seem to break really easily which is unusual for laminated neck construction.  original FB1's often only have 3 neck laminates rather than the 9 seen above which is usually saved for the higher numbered models.   Its the 9 laminate ones i have seen break before.  

i don't think 1 degree will make much difference between the tokai and gibson, not if everything else it equal.  the large headstock design with stupidly heavy tuners on an already neck heavy shape is what leads  to the common break on these

I don't think the laminating helps much really, since it's parallel-grain so the difference in weakness lines between the pieces is minimal. All it does is make the break shatter rather than split cleanly…

If anything is a candidate for a scarf joint, it's these.

for me laminating definitely helps makes necks stronger and more stable... as a general rule... 

I just don't think gibson do it the right way or choose the right wood to do it with.  Mahogany as a neck wood is always dubious, it works for most guitar designs, but push those designs a bit further and you start to see the limitations it can bring, especially if poorer quality wood is selected

You can see from the clapton pic above that the body section of the mahogany neck laminations is heavily rift sawn and will probably be similar along the whole neck judging by the severity of the bit we can see.   

I have 3-5 laminations as being the optimal number in my head, can't remember where that came from or what it is based on though

stickyfiddle

Those Tokais are definitely scarf jointed. Unfortunately, the two I've tried were both pretty shitty unresonant guitars