That Peter Green pickup thing (again!)

SunDevil

Bareknuckle do a PG Blues set which I understand are based on inspecting the real pickups in the Peter Green 59 burst

As I understand it, in this set it's the magnet polarity that's been reversed in one pup (so one pickup's magnet is N/S and the other S/N)?

From the perspective of the signal sent to the amp, is this arrangement any different using a push pull and a 4 conductor pickup to reverse the current going through one of the pickups but with the pickup magnets both N/S?

Alegree

Nope.

Funkfingers

The only possible difference is the original "Greeny/Moore" pickup has single conductor + braid output cable whereas a modern pickup will have at least 2-con + shield in plastic insulation. 

The Eric Johnsons of this world claim to be able to hear a fractional difference of tone.

ICBM

It is *possible* that the two methods may sound different, because the magnetic fields of the pickups will interact a bit differently - but it must be quite marginal, and I would guess will be outweighed by any differences in the pickups themselves.

That said, there is a difference between RWRP and normal Strat sets, which is effectively the same difference, although the pickups are closer together.

So I wouldn't dismisses it completely - but it's perfectly possible to get a good Peter Green sound by electrically reversing the pickup as well as by flipping the magnet.

Funkfingers

All we need now is (pre-spiking) Peter's touch in a bottle.

SunDevil

Thanks Gents!

@icbm - this is what I was wondering - the magnetic fields could interact differently and potentially impact the string movement too?

It's a small ingredient in the grand scheme of things, but it all adds up, I guess

ICBM

That old Les Paul does certainly have a unique tone, whatever it is - there's a video of Kirk Hammett playing it in the studio, so obviously a different player and a different amp, and it's instantly obvious what guitar it is even before you see it.

Edit - found it…



Skip to 6'30" if you're not a fan of Metallica.

OK, it is well-known that he owns this guitar, but I still think it has a very distinctive sound - and that's even with him using the bridge pickup!

Emiel

Keep in mind Peter Green (and Gary Moore and Snowy White) rarely used the full out-of-phase effect. He/they usually dialed in a bit more of one pickup, because the volume drop is very large with both pickups at equal volume. Only at the quietest bits they might have gone for the full OOP effect. It's very clear when they do. 

I've only had the out-of-phase via a 4-conductor pickup and a push-push pot like Snowy White, did work just fine.Properly more important is that the pickups are well matched and put into a good piece of wood...

TimmyO

I had a push-push on regular (not 4 conductor) Gibson Burstbuckers - when engaged the braided shield carries the signal. I was concerned about noise but it was ok. 

I don't like to talk about it much because this was in a semi (Sheraton) and the whole pickup fitting and soldering exercise gives me fucking Vietnam-style flashbacks... 

Rox

Funkfingers said:

The only possible difference is the original "Greeny/Moore" pickup has single conductor + braid output cable whereas a modern pickup will have at least 2-con + shield in plastic insulation. 

The Eric Johnsons of this world claim to be able to hear a fractional difference of tone.

There IS an audible difference, one has a metallic ring of "ker-ching!" added to the price.

OilCityPickups

I did a fair bit of testing of flipped magnet v flipped wiring, and I have to agree there is no discernible difference to my ears (and they are pretty well dialled in).
I would agree also with @Emiel that once you have a well made set of pickups and a phase switch, the most important thing is to put those in a good sounding Les Paul with proper wiring. I don't really subscribe to the 'let's make a Peter Green set of pickups' school of pickup making ... any top notch set of low output PAF style pickups will get you there with the phase mod. But to make full use you have to learn to play like Peter Green!

Danielsguitars

My recent experience of out of phase was a magnet flip set of montys pafs
While the oop sounded great I couldn't deal with the big volume drop so I flipped it back 

The best one I've had so far is a wired out of phase paf by shed pickups 
It's quite a while since I used the pickup but I don't remember the volume dropping as much 
I'll be getting a bk mule bridge rewound so it's a low wind and try it again 

I like oop for rhythm on a good les paul too
 

OilCityPickups

The relative output of each pickup will be a contributory factor in sound/volume drop, as will the coil 'offset' on PAF types. Remember, at the time PGs Les Paul was made, neck and bridge pickups were wound to the same output and totally interchangeable. These days we all want slightly hotter bridge pickups to 'balance properly' with the neck, and this may well mean that getting 'that sound' is a touch more difficult. If I were setting out to make a Peter Green LP, I'd probably choose either two neck pickups or two bridge pickups, then balance using pickup height 'old school' style. This is of course a compromise for 'regular' modern LP style sounds ... but having everything is seldom possible.

Gagaryn

I recently rewired my tele to add OOP. If I'm honest I didn't expect much from it but it actually sounds brilliant with no discernible loss of volume between standard middle position and OOP. I really like the OOP sound - its obviously very different from PG's LP which sounds sublime but the OOP sound on th eTele is very usable - pickups are one of @TheGuitarWeasel strat neck pickups and a BK Flat 50 in the bridge.

WezV

wasn't part of he sound due to the pickup being re-wound with the wrong wire at the same time the magnet was accidently flipped?

OilCityPickups

WezV said:

wasn't part of he sound due to the pickup being re-wound with the wrong wire at the same time the magnet was accidently flipped?

That's certainly the 'legend' although it's difficult to sort fact from fiction on this. Some say the the pickup was wound with heavy Formvar some say it was simply a UK wire gauge ... which is subtly different in diameter to closest equivalents in 'American Wire Gauge'. Without the definitive test of taking the pickup apart and unwinding part of it to measure the wire diameter and insulation thickness I think every pickup maker has his own speculations on this. :-)

SunDevil

Dusting off this old thread with some more news..

There's obviously a load of 'lore' around these pickups, but it seems to boil down to one of two contradictory stories

1) The pickup was faulty and was rewired in reverse with the wrong wire (and this is evidenced by pictures of Peter playing the guitar with only one pickup and a guy who claims he re-wired it using a record turn table as a winding machine)
2) The guy who repaired the neck break when the guitar was in the custodianship of Gary Moore (apparently Charlie Chandler, if anyone has spoken to Charlie about this and can verify?) apparently claims he removed the pups for the repair and says they were factory fresh, with the magnet being reversed in Kalamazoo (there's at least one burst out there where this error has been verified as a factory issue)

If I recall correctly, this guitar also paid a visit to @FelineGuitars, so Jonathan might also have an insight on this one?

So, you pay you're money and you takes you're choice.. having tried the reverse electrical polarity already, I decided to give the magnet flip a try

At this point, big thanks go @TheGuitarWeasel, who was kind enough to flip the magnet on one of his excellent Beano Masterwound neck pups for me, which I've subsequently installed the wrong way up for maximum effect.

And the results are epic - this is not a case of a massive difference in tone between the magnet flip and the phase reverse but I have been able to dial in a tone I'm very, very happy with and crucially, I 'think' (this is totally subjective) that it's more dynamic.

Do I now sound identical to Herr Greenbaum? ..never will, but by using a combination of pick and fingers, I'm now really deep into that tone

JerkMoans

Wow. Newcomer to the party, but I admire the dedication.

FelineGuitars

I have heard conflicting stories - the simplest being a flipped magnet or a reversed connection of the single conductor wire>

The other that I have heard was from BKP's Tim mills and the difference came from a rewind of the neck pickup 
It was done with a type of Formvar wire whose insulation layer was thicker than the plain enamel resulting in a physically bigger coil form with more of the wire of each coil being a slightly further distance from the magnetic core of each coil's slugs or screws

That would account for any reason that that pickup in itself may sound a little different from any other neck position PAF of that era.

But the out of phase-ness with the other pickup. What about that? 

I was told that when they rewound the coils they rotated the bobbins the opposite way to feed the wire into them compared to the direction that Gibson winds its bobbins.

So if Gibson rotates it's bobbins anticlockwise, then Greeny's neck pickup bobbins were wound clockwise.

The single conductor wire was connected correctly, but the reversed direction of wind would put the signal out of phase with the bridge unit. (Ash or someone can shoot me down if I'm wrong in my description)

ICBM

The single-conductor cable must have been connected correctly because if it was reversed the pickup baseplate and cover will be 'hot' and buzz loudly when touched. No repairer would do that no matter how little they knew about Gibson pickups. In fact it's unlikely it was ever disconnected from the baseplate at all because that isn't necessary when repairing a pickup.

The options are:

Reversed coil winding direction
Reversed coil connections
Reversed magnet

Without dismantling the pickup we will never know, since all have the same effect to a very close degree. The unique sound of that guitar is as much down to the whole guitar as the pickups anyway - there's a good bit of video of Kirk Hammett playing it where it's quite recognisable, and he's using the *bridge* pickup, which obviously wasn't affected by any of this.

SunDevil

Going to get scienc-y beyond my capabilities here.. Just a theory and I'm very happy to be shot down in flames if this is utter b*llocks

The polarity of an electromagnet is (according to Google) determined by the direction of current flowing through it.

If the bridge pup only is engaged and the neck magnet is physically inverted but electrically grounded, the polarity of the neck magnet will be determined only by it's 'natural' magnetism.

Run a current through the neck pickup coil the 'correct' way and you have a mismatch that tries to invert the polarity of the electromagnet back to stock, no doubt producing a lot of very messy eddy currents and these would change depending on the voltage in the coil.

If any of the above is true, then I think I'm making a case for the engaged pickup being impacted by the earthed one?