Body wood affects tone

professorben

Gassage said:

professorben said:

Gassage said:

Now then....

I have just made some very simple unscientific experiments.

1. I placed two strats back to back, one amplified. I played the one not plugged in but as it was in full contact with the plugged guitar. You could hear it through the pups of the other into the amp (faintly)
2. I plucked a note on a guitar that was plugged in. As the note sustained, I grabbed and held the headstock of guitar firmly. It dampened the sound.

Discuss.

Pixies

No mate, Lemonheads.

Evan Dando........

impmann

professorben said:

Gassage said:

professorben said:

Gassage said:

Now then....

I have just made some very simple unscientific experiments.

1. I placed two strats back to back, one amplified. I played the one not plugged in but as it was in full contact with the plugged guitar. You could hear it through the pups of the other into the amp (faintly)
2. I plucked a note on a guitar that was plugged in. As the note sustained, I grabbed and held the headstock of guitar firmly. It dampened the sound.

Discuss.

Pixies

No mate, Lemonheads.

Evan Dando........

That chap had poor taste in women.

Gassage

@impmann   ;

Evan Dando was hot. Seriously hot.

impmann

Gassage said:

@impmann   ;

Evan Dando was hot. Seriously hot.

I will bow to your... erm... judgement on that one, chap.

:-)

Sassafras

Gassage said:

@impmann   ;

Evan Dando was hot. Seriously hot.

I'll take your word for that:

impmann

Sassafras said:

Gassage said:

@impmann   ;

Evan Dando was hot. Seriously hot.

I'll take your word for that:

The H-Plan diet does have some side effects.

Three-ColourSunburst

Ravenous said:

koneguitarist said:

What I didn't really agree with is, all this attacking one person for what' initially is a quite interesting question to debate. I love wood, and its true some just seems to resonate more than others but why I don't know or care, but i do care if it resonates as it invariably sounds better in my book. 

+wis.

Yes a certain poster here is a pesky teenager who likes to annoy people, but if you don't like him don't read his stuff.

Isn't deliberately diverting threads supposed to be a cooler offence around here?

If that refers to me, I'll let you know I will be drawing a pension in a little over 3 years!

Anyhow. I know this thread has been derailed, but here's a final thought from me.

I think that body wood really does not have an effect on tone, for all the reasons I have mentioned. However, there still remains the possibility that the wood used for the neck actually does have an effect. For one that study by Pereira et al. used the same neck, so the effect of changes in neck wood was not considered. Secondly, as the papers by Fleischer point out, whilst the conductance at the bridge / body interface is very low, that of the neck is much higher. The mass of the neck is also much lower relative to that of the body, going some way to addressing the problem of creating a 'resonant' system when the string carries relatively little energy.

Of course the neck still might not have a significant effect either, or one that cannot be reliably perceived. However, if the idea that the wood used in the construction of the guitar does affect the timbre of the instrument has any merit at all, I think it is the wood of the neck that is the most likely to have an effect.

So what we need is another set of rigorous studies, this time using the same body but real guitar necks identical in every way other than the wood used. I don't think that any such studies have ever been done.

Gassage

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Ravenous said:

koneguitarist said:

What I didn't really agree with is, all this attacking one person for what' initially is a quite interesting question to debate. I love wood, and its true some just seems to resonate more than others but why I don't know or care, but i do care if it resonates as it invariably sounds better in my book. 

+wis.

Yes a certain poster here is a pesky teenager who likes to annoy people, but if you don't like him don't read his stuff.

Isn't deliberately diverting threads supposed to be a cooler offence around here?

If that refers to me, I'll let you know I will be drawing a pension in a little over 3 years!

Anyhow. I know this thread has been derailed, but here's a final thought from me.

I think that body wood really does not have an effect on tone, for all the reasons I have mentioned. However, there still remains the possibility that the wood used for the neck actually does have an effect. For one that study by Pereira et al. used the same neck, so the effect of changes in neck wood was not considered. Secondly, as the papers by Fleischer point out, whilst the conductance as the bridge / body interface is very low, that of the neck is much higher. The mass of the neck is also much lower relative to that of the body, going some way to addressing the problem of creating a 'resonant' system when the string carries relatively little energy.

I happen to agree with you on this- basically, the neck is, as I mentioned before, a trussed cantilever, and it is logical that it resonates. As noted above, pluck an open note, and then grab firmly the headstock- it deffo dampens the note. Try it.

crunchman

As mentioned somewhere above, if you can find them, try some rosewood necked PRS guitars against the same model with a mahogany neck.  Of course the rosewood necks are unfinished as well just to complicate things further.

professorben

crunchman said:

As mentioned somewhere above, if you can find them, try some rosewood necked PRS guitars against the same model with a mahogany neck.  Of course the rosewood necks are unfinished as well just to complicate things further.

Oooh does a nitro finish sound different from a poly finish???

professorben

Gassage said:

@impmann   ;

Evan Dando was hot. Seriously hot.

He was a pretty guy true. 

koneguitarist

Regarding the necks, my thoughts are again the stiffness and fit I feel are more important than the material. Does anyone remember the Carbon fibre necks that came out back in 80's, the whole premise was that as they were so rigid the sustain would be increased and dead notes eliminated due to consistency of material all the way through. 
Something that sort of proves this theorey is having a 5string bass and comparing the E string sustain as compared to a 4string. In my experience the E always sounds better on a 5string due possibly to the extra thickness and stiffness of the wider neck. 
Over the years I have had all sorts of myths dispelled, a very light 76 tele, a '54 tele that was not as good as my MIJ 62 tele reissue. A '79 strat with most perfect build and a gorgeous heavily figured Birdseye maple neck, a 70's Deluxe tele with factory fitted strat trem that was thinner and brighter than a standard tele despite the HB's. So now I look on every instrument for what it is, good ok or bad. I very rarely find a bad guitar made from the 80's onwards. 

WezV

i don't think you can totally separate wood species from stiffness - maple is almost always stiffer than the equivalent cut of mahogany.  The generalisation is a useful one here... but yeah, i totally agree stiffness is important - one way to control it is through wood choice

I have done Quite a few laminated necks, usually 5-7 piece with balanced grain and cf reinforcement.  I have tried different styles of cf reinforcement too.  

Its possible to make a neck too stiff, it can sound too direct.

these days I still often laminate but try and limit the stiffness.  The neck is a big part of the sound for me, and controlling the stiffness of neck shaft AND headstock makes a noticeable difference 

Talking about bridge coupling also brings the question of bridge type into it.  A trem is mounted very differently to a wraparound.  I believe body wood on a strat is less important than a junior because of the bridge mounting style

Gassage

Taff and Wez,

Re stiffness, what you really want is elasticity more so than stiffness, IMO.

There's something called the Coeff of Resitution, which is the ability of a material to reform elastically.

However, far too much theory here- our ears tend not to bullshit us.

Teetonetal

Gassage said:

However, far too much theory here- our ears tend not to bullshit us.

But so often people hear with their eyes or wallet.

mart

Gassage said:

Taff and Wez,

Re stiffness, what you really want is elasticity more so than stiffness, IMO.

There's something called the Coeff of Resitution, which is the ability of a material to reform elastically.

However, far too much theory here- our ears tend not to bullshit us.

Are we still talking about guitars here?

WezV

If anyone doubts the body of an electric resonates with string energy (despite being able to feel it), try attaching a clip on tuner to various parts where you can't normally feel it.

you can tune from the switch tip, scratchplate, strap button - anything else you can attach it to.  You will get a reading of all of them.   With my stroboflip tuner I can tune almost as accurately from the switch tip as I can normal headstock location

kt66

All I know is I seem to prefer the sound of Maple guitars to any other, Rickenbacker and Guild being my best examples. 

dindude

Interestingly I picked up a S/H LP Jr type guitar yesterday and within two strums I could tell it didn't sound like an all mahogany guitar. Checking with the original builder who put it together, true enough at least the neck is maple, the body could be a variant of mahogany or something else. 

Of course the true giveaway was that it's a set neck/ three a side headstock that stays in tune!

professorben

kt66 said:

All I know is I seem to prefer the sound of Maple guitars to any other, Rickenbacker and Guild being my best examples. 

Ah but Ricky's are a great example of a very specific construction style. 

It might be more accurate to say you love the sound of a Ricky which is made predominantly of maple as opposed to a 70's Les Paul which is also made of maple. 

They will not sound very similar.