So the era of the large valve head is well and truly over?

ICBM

That's absolutely true, but one of the reasons I like big (as in power, not necessarily physical size) master volume amps is that they can be turned down to almost any low level without altering the sound as much as happens with a small one. I've always found it far easier to get better sounds at low volumes with big amps than small ones, in fact.

It's probably true that this is partly because a big amp running at say a tenth of its maximum power will most likely not be in it's "sweet spot" anyway and so it won't sound any worse quieter! But with a small amp, you may find that the sound goes from great to poor over the same volume range as the big amp goes from good to still good. If you can get the big amp to sound good at that volume it will then be independent of it.

I can't speak for anyone else who uses a big amp, but for me it's really *not* about volume or because I play too loud. I know I might be unusual, but this is also why I simply do not understand or agree with the idea that an amp can be 'too loud' or that you're 'not making use of' the power. I've almost never come across an amp that cannot be turned down, and if it sounds better like that than a small amp then you *are* making use of the power - for tone, not volume.

The only reason I sold my 100W Mesa 2x12" was because it was too heavy (even for me, after some minor medical advice) not because it was too loud or really that big.

guitarfishbay

The thing is no 15-20 watt mini head sounds like a 100 watt head, as far as I’m aware. It’s nothing to do with volume.

Whenever I’ve A/B’d full vs low power modes on big heads they’ve always sounded worse than just reducing the master volume, even at home volumes. By that I mean lower power sounds more narrow and shouty, the opposite of what I want which is big and balanced. 50 Watts seems to be the minimum power I’m happy with for modern rock type playing.

I do love AC30s but for a different sound (plus they’re capable of being bloody loud anyway).

midlifecrisis

ive never gigged with a big stack but i did try one at a rehearsal studio and even at not loud settings it did have a nice presence that you dont get with  even a 2 by 12 combo. However for practicality im not tempted to get one.

Fiftyshadesofjay

I think bigger amps always sound better (or at least bigger) then a smaller equivalent. I think it's down to the large transformers more than anything.

guitarfishbay

midlifecrisis said:

ive never gigged with a big stack but i did try one at a rehearsal studio and even at not loud settings it did have a nice presence that you dont get with  even a 2 by 12 combo. However for practicality im not tempted to get one.

If you get a chance run the 4x12s side by side, they sound better that way IMO.  Well, I don't like standing in front of guitar speakers at ear level but YMMV

MartinB

guitarfishbay said:

Whenever I’ve A/B’d full vs low power modes on big heads they’ve always sounded worse than just reducing the master volume, even at home volumes. By that I mean lower power sounds more narrow and shouty, the opposite of what I want which is big and balanced. 50 Watts seems to be the minimum power I’m happy with for modern rock type playing.

I do love AC30s but for a different sound (plus they’re capable of being bloody loud anyway).

A lot of amps with half power modes use a pentode/triode switch for the power valves.  Triode mode has less power but also sounds different, and I haven't heard one I really liked yet.  So that might be what you're hearing, rather than the reduced power alone. 

ICBM

MartinB said:

A lot of amps with half power modes use a pentode/triode switch for the power valves.  Triode mode has less power but also sounds different, and I haven't heard one I really liked yet.  So that might be what you're hearing, rather than the reduced power alone.  

Agreed. Others turn off two of the valves, and I've also yet to hear a four-valve amp that sounds as good like that as with all four valves running, even if you reset the impedance correctly.

I also don't like power scaling or other reduced-voltage options.

Basically nothing sounds quite as good as a big power stage wide open, even if you're only feeding it with a whisper.

earwighoney

ICBM said:

Basically nothing sounds quite as good as a big power stage wide open

Wrong.  

Nothing sounds as good as a Line 6 Spider on 'Insane' mode.

Well, that'd be wrong assumption.

Nothing sounds as good as TWO Line 6 Spider's on 'Insane' mode.

DJH83004

I personally think running true pentodes, beam pentodes (actually tetrodes with internal beam deflection plates) in triode mode is really in the realm of Hi-Fi amplification, and doesn't naturally sound right in the guitar world. Equally ultra linear transformers I don't feel have a place in guitar valve amps, though lovers of later SF Fenders with their ultra cleans may disagree.       

longi

richardhomer said:no

I recently went to see a drummer friend’s band in a pub - quite a small pub in fact. I’d been warned they were loud. The truth is, the guitarist was loud and the rest of the band seemed to have try to complete with him

He was using a JCM 900 100 watt head through a 2x12 cab. Early on the gig, the decibel meter on my phone read 87.5 dB....


Unless you’re a pro player in huge venues I just can’t imagine wanting that much power.

I wouldn't go by a phone dB meter, very unreliable! I measure sound pressures levels as part of my job, 87 dB is not very loud! Things don't get interesting until around 95db!

To get enough volume to clear a drummer in a rock band your going to need at least 95-100db!

Pete24v

I had one of the best tones ever last weekend playing a wedding in a big hotel. I took along the 100w Dual Showman Reverb with a 2x12 and set both the channel & master volume to 4.

Yes it was a bit louder than I'm used to (slightly angled it towards the drummer, he deserves it lol), I didn't need much of it in the pa. But the big clear sounded it produced was simply amazing. My Thorpyfx and KoT also sounded incredible.

Normally I gig with a 50w Carol Ann Satin, which is great! But even though they are both very clean amps, the Fender had a much more muscular tone to it. 

shaunm

@shugz has one of my favourite tones and he plays a 50 NMV amp. 

All of my favourite live tones have been when I’ve used loud and big amps. I just wish I could do it more often.

timmysoft

You're all pisswimps.

go big or go home. 

Fiftyshadesofjay

In my defence I do play my Kemper incredibly loud through a 4x12 a lot of the time and it easily keeps up with our other guitar players 5150. 

Guess that’s part of the problem for me, if it can do that as well, do you really need a massive head when a smaller unit can achieve the same?

Of course bass players have known this for ages, in fact these small Class D amps sound better than the ginormous valve amps in this application a lot of the time. 

imalrightjack

I believe @Danny1969 nailed my thoughts on Kemper, in respect of the more natural, breaking up gain sounds. What I most dislike about the Kemper is mini adjustments are a faff. It's amazing for recording, into a PA is wonderful when you're dialled in, but...something is missing for me.

Won't we end up with a situation like when a lot of studios ditched analogue gear? Then it all became very collectible and expensive? So started hoovering up and stockpiling valve heads

bassbora

Fiftyshadesofjay said:

In my defence I do play my Kemper incredibly loud through a 4x12 a lot of the time and it easily keeps up with our other guitar players 5150. 

Guess that’s part of the problem for me, if it can do that as well, do you really need a massive head when a smaller unit can achieve the same?

Of course bass players have known this for ages, in fact these small Class D amps sound better than the ginormous valve amps in this application a lot of the time. 

This is very true for the bass players. I wanted light, compact but powerful and using Class D and Neo speakers I am very happy. I run Mesa Subway D800 into Bergantino AE212 and tone and power are always perfect. You get the same discussion on basschat about valves vs class d. In a band setting no one is ever going to hear the difference and I do get compliments from sound guys and other bass players how good the tone is. So I will never go for the big amps for either bass or guitar. 

bermudianbrit

Adding a slightly different perspective here, and I recognise that I'm likely the only one on the forum with this particular set of needs, I am actually somewhat willing to compromise by using a smaller rig, if it means I can carry it. As I'm blind, I have only one hand free (the other has a cane in it) and can't drive. So guitar, pedalboard and amp is already very much a stretch. if the head is 20 kg or particularly big, there's simply no way its going to happen. My fix is soon to take the form of a pedal-platform amp which goes on the board e.g. a Quilter. Does it sound as good as my Dr. Z? No chance. But unless I am regularly gigging with a band who has a few forgiving members willing to drive, then my independence necessitates it.

Not a useful contribution in the context of what most people have to think about, but its how I do things because I have to.

Teyeplayer

bermudianbrit said:

Adding a slightly different perspective here, and I recognise that I'm likely the only one on the forum with this particular set of needs, I am actually somewhat willing to compromise by using a smaller rig, if it means I can carry it. As I'm blind, I have only one hand free (the other has a cane in it) and can't drive. So guitar, pedalboard and amp is already very much a stretch. if the head is 20 kg or particularly big, there's simply no way its going to happen. My fix is soon to take the form of a pedal-platform amp which goes on the board e.g. a Quilter. Does it sound as good as my Dr. Z? No chance. But unless I am regularly gigging with a band who has a few forgiving members willing to drive, then my independence necessitates it.

Not a useful contribution in the context of what most people have to think about, but its how I do things because I have to.

On the contrary @bermudianbrit I think your comment is a very valid contribution.

As I stated earlier I think half the issue for most of us is the practicality of carrying gear about. Your clearly experiencing the same thing. Heavy heads and 4x12s as lovely as they sound, can be a total pain in the arse to lug about.

ICBM

bermudianbrit said:

Not a useful contribution in the context of what most people have to think about, but its how I do things because I have to.

I think it's a useful contribution as well.

For me personally now that I'm getting older, not as fit as I used to be, and I enjoy going to gigs and practices on public transport if possible since parking anywhere near a venue in Edinburgh is usually a nightmare and taking the bus means I can have a beer if I want to, I would be more likely to consider something like a Quilter - probably the Aviator, which is a 'proper' head - than a big valve head… even if I take my own amp at all.

For bass I now have an Ampeg Micro VR, which is 200W and weighs under 10lb even including a vintage-style plywood head box - there are even lighter bass amps if you don't mind a modern 'tin box'. I've actually tried it for guitar, but it doesn't have quite the right voicing unfortunately.

guitarfishbay

@ICBM ;

Have you seen those new DV Mark micro heads?  Someone on here posted about them.  They do tiny 250 watt heads, Greg Howe has a signature one, and they do a little metal one too.  They're about 2.6kg.






The drive sounds ok on the M videos.





On the Little GH videos I've listened to the drive sound a bit more like a pedal into an SS poweramp, which makes sense.  But still a useable sound.