When people only refer to "finger style" or" strumming"....

jellyroll

Re-posting @Lewy here......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7V3fsncCzU

Jimbro66

Great singing and playing in that video @Lewy. I love that blue grass guitar style and the playing of the top guys like Brian Sutton and Tony Rice et all. I've been lucky enough to see some of them live. Ten years or more ago I was heavily into bluegrass dobro and on a couple of occasions played alongside Steve Kaufman when he was over here. I took some bluegrass guitar lessons from Steve who was a great teacher.

BTW has anyone here done the bluegrass guitar courses at Sore Fingers Week?

Lewy

Thanks for the kind words!

Never did the guitar course but did do the Sorefingers vocal course when Mollie O'brien was the tutor. That year had Chris Eldridge from Punch Brothers and Tyler Grant (a Winfield winner) running the guitar courses. 

Next year I believe one of the guitar course tutors is Courtney Hartman who is phenomenal. Sorefingers is generally an amazing experience, regardless of which course you do. I've only done it the once and having young kids mean it will be a while before I can disappear for a week of picking and drinking any time soon, but I'm itching to do it again.

A couple of years ago John Paul Jones turned up as a student on the mandolin course!

Did you ever see Tony Rice live @Jimbro66 ? Sadly I don't think anyone's going to get that chance again....

Jimbro66

They have such highly talented players teaching each year at Sore Fingers and, as you say @Lewy, the atmosphere during the whole week is amazing. I did the dobro course a couple of times in the early days of SFW and loved every minute of those weeks.

For anyone not familiar with Sore Fingers Week it is something that takes place a couple of times a year, once for bluegrass players and the other for Old Time players. It's held at a lovely old public school in Gloucestershire and most students stay at the school for the week, either in dormitories or private rooms. During the day there is tuition from top players in most bluegrass and old time instruments and vocals. Students are encouraged to form bands and can be seen practicing and rehearsing in small groups spread across the beautiful grounds of the school. The aim being to win the scratch band competition at the end of the week. Evenings are always the most amazing jam sessions where everyone if encouraged to take part. There are student players of all levels. The week culminates with the band competition and finally a concert given by all the tutors where the level of performance is phenomenal. It's not a cheap week but as tuition goes it doesn't come any better.

No, regrettably i never did manage to see Tony Rice. Among the players I have seen are Steve Kaufman, Jack Lawrence, Dan Crary, Larry sparks and Peter Rowan, Beppe Gambetta, Russ Barenburg, Orrin Starr and our own Chris Moreton. Maybe others I've forgotten. All fabulous players.

thomasross20

I'm sorry I've not had time to check out more vids and read replies but this is all very interesting. I MUST check out these courses you mention..

TheOtherDennis

Lewy said:

If he was teaching beginning or intermediate players I’d agree wholeheartedly but he doesn’t put himself out there as that kind of educator - he only ever does advanced masterclass type things. People with aspirations at that level shouldn’t expect to be coddled and should appreciate the plain talking.

Bryan Sutton (guy in the original video above)  IS a first class educator and is very nurturing to people of all levels and intentions. Grier never claims to be that.

Fair point, I guess.

On the subject of courses and stuff, is there anywhere I could learn some flatpicking stuff that isn't quite as pyrotechnic as some of the vids? That's not a criticism of the players or their music, just that I'm not capable of playing that level of speed (and god knows I've tried), so it would be good if I could get something a bit more Gardeners' World soundtracky, if you know what I mean.

Jimbro66

TheOtherDennis said:

On the subject of courses and stuff, is there anywhere I could learn some flatpicking stuff that isn't quite as pyrotechnic as some of the vids? That's not a criticism of the players or their music, just that I'm not capable of playing that level of speed (and god knows I've tried), so it would be good if I could get something a bit more Gardeners' World soundtracky, if you know what I mean.

If you'd like something on dvd then Homespun have some good tuitional material. Not sure if it's still available but Steve Kaufman had a Learning To Flatpick dvd set on Homespun that covered everything from basics to advanced. It included tab for a dozen or more popular bluegrass tunes.

@Lewy will probably have some up-to-date suggestions.

jellyroll

https://www.homespun.com/shop/product/basic-bluegrass-rhythm-guitar/

thomasross20

Keep these learning recommendations coming! Anybody seen anything decent on jamplay or similar (for acoustic in general)?

Lewy

There are some excellent online learning courses for flatpicking. Ones I have used:

Artistworks Flatpick Guitar School (taught by Bryan Sutton) - full curriculum for basic, intermediate and advanced, with Video Exchange. About £25 a month but for that you can submit videos to the best flatpicker on the planet and have him send back a personalised video response. Think you can do four video exchanges a month but even if you could only do one it would still be insane value. You get to see everyone else’s video exchanges too so there is a LOT of info available. Best option by far.

Sonic Junction - Chris Eldridge, another phenomenal player (from Punch Brothers and plays in a duo with Julian Lage). He picks a song or tune every month and does a lesson building it up from basic chords to solos. You can submit videos and Chris will comment, but no video exchange and the feedback is usually more encouraging than critiquing.

Peghead Nation - straightforward video lessons from Scott Nygard. No exchanges. There’s a flatpick rhythm course which would be a good starting point. And then a more comprehensive course after that.

Beyond that, Homespun Tapes and Stephan Grossman’s Guitar Workshops now have most of their DVD libraries available for instant digital download. The one that got me started was called ‘Flatpicking Guitar Country Style’ with Eric Thompson.

You can do any kind of music with this style but nearly all the tutorial material is bluegrass and old time country orientated, which may well be why more people don’t play this way.....

thomasross20

May I ask.. how does this tie in with the Troy Grady course? I think it's all quite similar? Or maybe I'm wrong. 
I WILL check those out, believe me.. even if it's in 6 months time or whenever..

Lewy

thomasross20 said:

May I ask.. how does this tie in with the Troy Grady course? I think it's all quite similar? Or maybe I'm wrong. 
I WILL check those out, believe me.. even if it's in 6 months time or whenever..

Cracking the Code? One can definitely apply pick slanting to flatpicking to an extent, but how most flatpickers play is what Troy calls crosspicking (which gets confusing because that term actually means something else to flatpickers).

The thing to remember is that whilst flatpicking is alternate picking, the pick direction is tied to the beat, not to economy of motion. That’s how it gets it’s drive. So a lot of the Troy Grady stuff doesn’t apply. I also don’t think I’ve ever heard Troy talk about tone, and getting good acoustic tone is a huge obsession for flatpickers, to the point where if something is easier to execute one way than another, but the easier way gives a lesser tone, they’ll choose the harder way.

He’s had David Grier on Masters of Mechanics but I haven’t watched it as I don’t subscribe.

thomasross20

Thanks for the reply, @Lewy

BigLicks67

TheOtherDennis said:

On the subject of courses and stuff, is there anywhere I could learn some flatpicking stuff that isn't quite as pyrotechnic as some of the vids? That's not a criticism of the players or their music, just that I'm not capable of playing that level of speed (and god knows I've tried), so it would be good if I could get something a bit more Gardeners' World soundtracky, if you know what I mean.

If you can read music then there is a website called thesession.org which has a compendium of fiddle reels & jigs that can be transposed to guitar. They are mostly the melodies and would be a good introduction.

There's also a Tony Rice Homespun book/cd and an old Richard Thompson homespun book which features a flat picked Poppy Leaf Hornpipe and The Rakish Paddy.
Simon Mayor's book on Celtic Mandolin is very good too and is where I learned to play St Anne's Reel (There are several versions in the book to choose from).

brojangles

I sort of play that way - not at the same level of skill, obviously, but playing chords or bits of chords while picking out bass notes and melody lines with the same constant hand motion - and I've always assumed it's because I'm a bit crap and need a pick to get the sound I want instead of using my right hand's fingers like proper players do. So I'm glad there are actual musicians who do it too. 

TheOtherDennis

Lewy said:

You can do any kind of music with this style but nearly all the tutorial material is bluegrass and old time country orientated, which may well be why more people don’t play this way.....

Can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but it's not the music or the style that puts me off, it's the speed and complexity, I'm just not up to it. And yes, I have tried very hard to speed up, but I only get so far and so fast and then it simply doesn't happen properly any more. We all have our limits, mine are just slightly lower than some other players', so I'd rather play something that's meant to be less pyrotechnic.

And thanks for the tutorial tips.

olafgarten

I have a friend who broke his ring finger and so glued a pick to the bandage and played with 2 picks at the same time. 

AliGorie

TheOtherDennis said:

I disagree. I think he's just harsh. Just because you don't know a particular tune - no matter how easy it is - doesn't mean you'll never be able to do anything. And the answer to the first question is "You need to find a way to get more time. Get up half an hour earlier every day and practice then as well as the 20 minutes you already have, it'll make a big difference." Encourage them to think about it, don't just tell him to, effectively, fuck off.

TheOtherDennis said:

Can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but it's not the music or the style that puts me off, it's the speed and complexity, I'm just not up to it. And yes, I have tried very hard to speed up, but I only get so far and so fast and then it simply doesn't happen properly any more. We all have our limits, mine are just slightly lower than some other players', so I'd rather play something that's meant to be less pyrotechnic.

And thanks for the tutorial tips.

1; I think I'd rather know where I stand - ability wise that is rather than deluding myself, that way I can go away and try and do something about it. I know many deluded musicians - one, a relation had music lessons when he was at school, and so thinks hes a musician. He can read music and knows theory to a fairly good degree  - thats the academic side of things - but he's got a BASIC sense of rhythm AND pitch which would be ok if he played a fretted instrument - NO he plays the violin - badly -  you've gotta 'make' the note on a violin - it really is woeful listening to him, painful even. He plays with other similarly talented people - and they actually perform - do gigs 'n stuff. He cant sit and jam with 'conventional' players playing ANY of the normal styles so, guess what, he says it's 'Improv' and he actually says it's 'jazz improv'!. Lots of simple quirky arrangements of scales which sound like it's looking for a film to be the incidental music too, he's simply - deluded.

2: the vid's above ao of players at the top of their game, but you'll notice that none of them are playing 'fast' - if you do a bpm you'll find theyre playing at approx dance rhythm - what makes it sound 'fast' it all the 'fills' and ornamentation their throwing in there - it's what you do to put u'r stamp on a piece. Go get 'the dots' of the basic tuned find ou tthe correct dance rhythm in bpm's and play the 'bare' tunes - in a while once u've got that down - add u'r own fills / runs.

Oh the fingerstyle humor thing - playing (all the bits ) of a pop or quirkier tune is clever (and technically involved ) - that's what is being displayed - but not funny.
David Grier is making little (musical) innuendos and nods to other tunes / styles within what on the surface appears to be a straight forward bluegrass tune - at dance tempo - intelligent and funny.

Lewy

AliGorie said:

TheOtherDennis said:

I disagree. I think he's just harsh. Just because you don't know a particular tune - no matter how easy it is - doesn't mean you'll never be able to do anything. And the answer to the first question is "You need to find a way to get more time. Get up half an hour earlier every day and practice then as well as the 20 minutes you already have, it'll make a big difference." Encourage them to think about it, don't just tell him to, effectively, fuck off.

TheOtherDennis said:

Can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but it's not the music or the style that puts me off, it's the speed and complexity, I'm just not up to it. And yes, I have tried very hard to speed up, but I only get so far and so fast and then it simply doesn't happen properly any more. We all have our limits, mine are just slightly lower than some other players', so I'd rather play something that's meant to be less pyrotechnic.

And thanks for the tutorial tips.

1; I think I'd rather know where I stand - ability wise that is rather than deluding myself, that way I can go away and try and do something about it. I know many deluded musicians - one, a relation had music lessons when he was at school, and so thinks hes a musician. He can read music and knows theory to a fairly good degree  - thats the academic side of things - but he's got a BASIC sense of rhythm AND pitch which would be ok if he played a fretted instrument - NO he plays the violin - badly -  you've gotta 'make' the note on a violin - it really is woeful listening to him, painful even. He plays with other similarly talented people - and they actually perform - do gigs 'n stuff. He cant sit and jam with 'conventional' players playing ANY of the normal styles so, guess what, he says it's 'Improv' and he actually says it's 'jazz improv'!. Lots of simple quirky arrangements of scales which sound like it's looking for a film to be the incidental music too, he's simply - deluded.

2: the vid's above ao of players at the top of their game, but you'll notice that none of them are playing 'fast' - if you do a bpm you'll find theyre playing at approx dance rhythm - what makes it sound 'fast' it all the 'fills' and ornamentation their throwing in there - it's what you do to put u'r stamp on a piece. Go get 'the dots' of the basic tuned find ou tthe correct dance rhythm in bpm's and play the 'bare' tunes - in a while once u've got that down - add u'r own fills / runs.

Oh the fingerstyle humor thing - playing (all the bits ) of a pop or quirkier tune is clever (and technically involved ) - that's what is being displayed - but not funny.
David Grier is making little (musical) innuendos and nods to other tunes / styles within what on the surface appears to be a straight forward bluegrass tune - at dance tempo - intelligent and funny.

Yeah, the full anecdote as it was related to me was that Grier was explaining that they were going to work on some fiddle tunes and someone said they were less interested in that and that they wanted to learn how to improvise. So he did the "ok, play happy birthday" thing to show that you can't effectively compose on the spot and at pace if you haven't got the facility to find notes of a very simple tune you already know on the instrument, and the way to build that facility is to learn a lot of tunes and understand what's going on inside them.

As for tempo - AG is bang on, they're not actually that fast. Bluegrass can be very fast but not all flatpicking is bluegrass. What is the culture shock when looking at the style for the first time is the constant churn of notes - that feels like speed but actually it's stamina and you develop it in different ways - with the added benefit that speed becomes a by-product. For what it's worth @TheOtherDennis I can't play any other kind of "fast" music. There's something about the division of labour between left and right hands, and the extensive use of open positions that makes this more accessible for me. Still been a good few years getting to the point where I'd do it on a gig though. 

BigLicks67

A friend of mine (drummer) who was studying at music college many moons ago was sitting in the rehearsal space listening to some guitarist shredding some EVH type noodling, when the course tutor came in pointed at him and said play Happy Birthday to which the EVH wannabe couldn't respond. So it seems it is a tactic employed by music pros across the globe : >