Considering an Orange head: probably AD30TC or Rockerverb 50 - Any opinions?

DartmoorHedgehog

I'm hankering after something with more "presence" than my trusty Blackstar HT20 since we've had two guitarists in the band.  I'm a big fan of Orange amps when other people play them, but the only one I'd ever played before was a Dual Terror.  Went into my local Orange dealer today and played around with a few (I should give them a mention actually - Sound Unlimited in Plymouth, bloke in there actively encouraged me to try a few amps even though I made it clear I had no intention of buying a new one).

First impression was that I really liked the Rockerverb 50 (Mk 2).  Very clear, and loads of top end clarity compared with my Blackstar.  Clean channel and a dirt channel, which is what I want.  Has an effects loop, which is what I'm used to.  Reverb is nice to have, although I don't use it that much on my current amp.  I thought I'd like the less modern-voiced amps more, but the RV sounded really good.  Obviously pretty pricey though...

They didn't have an AD30 in unfortunately, but the guy reckoned an OR15 was similar (another EL84 amp).  Slightly more grainy, slightly less bass I think.  Also nice, but I want two channels.

Also tried an OR100 (EL34s again I think) - not sure about that one, almost too much top end presence or something.  I wouldn't refuse if somebody gave me one though!

So, from that I think I'd go looking for an RV50, but I've got a niggling feeling I might still like the AD30TC...  But perhaps I just like "modern" amps (the Blackstar is quite modern voiced after all, and I like that).  I've never played an amp with a valve rectifier - is it likely to feel too spongy to me, or is it not that noticeable?  Anybody in the Plymouth/Exeter/East Cornwall area got an AD30 they'd be willing to let me have a go with?

I suspect the Rockerverb might be more versatile than an AD30 as long as I don't specially like the sound of the AD (assuming I can find one to try).  The AD doesn't really have a clean channel does it. The other thing to consider is reliability...  any nasties I should know about with RV50s or AD30TCs? Whatever people's opinions of Blackstar, my HT20 has not done anything nasty to me - I've had one failed preamp valve and recently one power valve, but it's never done any damage to the amp.

Sorry that got a bit long!  I'm reluctant to spend that sort of money without being absolutely sure.

siraxeman

I've never played any Orange amps but they sure sounded good when I've heard peeps playing them in music stores before....and the youtube demos of the Rockerverb have even had me considering maybe looking into getting one at some point...but I do notice they're more pricey than Marshalls!

timmysoft

I've owned a lot of Orange amps, including the AD30HTC, which is a fantastic amp although its very much in the vintage voiced category. The low end is loose and the mids are fuzzy, its a great amp but not for everybody!

I currently use the TH30, it has that very dry attack of the el84's but a more modern gain structure. Dont be put off by the minimal controls, there is a lot of good sounds available on the amp, i prefered it to the Rockerverb50.

ecc83

The HT-20 does have a bit of a "dark" reputation.

Many folks have found an EQ pedal in the FX  loop with up to 10dB of midrange boost can liven them up.

Dave.

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks for the replies.  Think I'll try to find an AD30TC to try before I make up my mind, and possibly a TH.

Dave, I do really like the HT20 - I've defended its reputation many times.  I am using an EQ in the loop, but it's just not quite "the sound in my head" (sorry ) with this band.  I've had it for a few years and it's been excellent.  Nothing against it at all.

How reliable are the big Oranges?  I suppose one side effect of the SS bits in the HT that people love to hate is that there's less "old tech" to conk out at the vital moment.  I've seen a few people moaning about reverb problems on RVs, but not much else, which I hope is a good sign.

ThePrettyDamned

I can wholeheartedly recommend one of these.  

http://www.peavey.com/products/6505/

The combo is imported and not too pricey, it claims to be 3 channels but it's really only 2 - clean and lead or crunch and lead.  

But it's brilliant

The EVH 5153 50 watt head is another option if you've already got a cab, too.

ThePrettyDamned

Or it might be worth trying a more powerful HT amp with the eq pedal you've got.

You might find that a higher headroom power section helps you shape the sound a bit more.  The 50 watt one is killer, and I found it to be 'more' amp than the 20 watt (which still sounded great). 

ICBM

The AD30 has a slight problem with blowing rectifier valves, because the standby switching is poorly designed. Apart from that they seem as reliable as each other.

Personally, I also find the AC30 too compressed and muddy-sounding, and a bit too midrangy. The good news is that replacing the rectifier valve with a solid-state plug-in (not "valve emulating", just a straight solid-state diode pair) cures the blowing valve problem and helps with the mud problem at the same time.

I also think the Rocker 30 sounds better than either of these amps - it's not simply a Rockerverb with no reverb, it's entirely different - but it's discontinued now and doesn't have an FX loop anyway.

samzadgan

ICBM said:

The AD30 has a slight problem with blowing rectifier valves, because the standby switching is poorly designed. Apart from that they seem as reliable as each other.

Personally, I also find the AC30 too compressed and muddy-sounding, and a bit too midrangy. The good news is that replacing the rectifier valve with a solid-state plug-in (not "valve emulating", just a straight solid-state diode pair) cures the blowing valve problem and helps with the mud problem at the same time.

I also think the Rocker 30 sounds better than either of these amps - it's not simply a Rockerverb with no reverb, it's entirely different - but it's discontinued now and doesn't have an FX loop anyway.

Rocker 30, Rocker 30, Rocker 30!…how many times do we have to give praise to these amps before Orange starts to make them again?!?!?

Recently there's been a few heads on ebay…if i was in the market to buy amps, i would buy one of those. They are far better than Rockerverb and the AD30

DartmoorHedgehog

Yes, the Rocker 30 always seems to bring out good comments.  Having had a go with a Rockerverb recently (and liked it), what would you say was different about the Rocker? (apart from no loop and reverb of course).  Chances of finding one of those to try is pretty slim, so if I bought one it would probably have to be blind.

Thanks for the recommendations @ThePrettyDamned - for some reason I've got a bit of an aversion to Peavey (no rational reason!) and if I'm changing amp I'd rather have a change from the Blackstar (much as I do like my HT20H).  For an equally irrational reason I'm drawn towards Orange.  If I'm considering a Rockerverb, then I'm into quite hefty money where all sorts of interesting stuff lives...  Mesa 5:25 or 5:50 for example are supposed to be pretty versatile.

I'm not a metal player, although some of the stuff we do in the band is pretty dark and heavy, almost Sabbathy.  But then some of our stuff is much more lively, almost rockabilly, and some is a bit goth.  I'm quite a fan of the type of stuff Jim Jones does (who uses a Rockerverb as it happens!).  So I want something that can do a half decent clean and low to medium gain dirt - I prefer not to use dirt pedals.  The AD30 I suspect may not clean enough for the clean stuff and possibly too loose for the stabby punk stuff.  The Rockerverb sounded superb to me in my short test, although the gain available is overkill for me (although so is the HT20).  Having a loop is nice, as I do like to put delay and chorus in the loop, but not the end of the world if I didn't have it.

Oh dear, not really getting anywhere am I...  I get the feeling if I bought a Rockerverb I'd probably be happy, but I've got a "what about x, y, z...?" in the back of my mind.

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Yes, the Rocker 30 always seems to bring out good comments.  Having had a go with a Rockerverb recently (and liked it), what would you say was different about the Rocker? (apart from no loop and reverb of course).

It's more punchy and dynamic, and just sounds bigger and more like the old Oranges of the 1970s (even though it's quite a different design circuit-wise).

It has less gain - even though I'm an FX loop user with higher gain amps, I doubt I'd miss it - it suits having all the FX in front, with higher gain sounds done with pedals. The clean channel is very clean and basic, but takes distortion and fuzz pedals very well; the dirty channel is more of a mid-gain crunch channel and takes overdrive pedals and boost really well.

Rocker 30s aren't *that* rare, either - and they're beginning to get enough of a following that you shouldn't have any trouble re-selling it in the event you don't get on with it. I think they're by far the best modern Orange amp apart from the reissue OR120, which is unusably loud for most people if you want dirt from it.

Col_Decker

I love my rocker30 so much that I wouldn't sell it for £1000. That said after a quick look on eBay there is one ending in 20hrs @ £350

timmysoft

I have access to a rocker 30 and although it's a great amp and I love it a lot, it's very limited in its sound. It's not as modern voiced as the th30 and doesn't do high gain as well but for anything up to hard rock it seems to cope, they do also feedback a lot with the gain up.

maw4neu

I had the AD30TC 2x12 Combo . . . . and I have to be honest, I didn't keep it fo long . . . Two channels, one slightly hotter than the other but both channels lacked any warmth . . I traded it for the Blackstar Artisan 30 which was a country mile better in every way. That's just my opinion though and everyone's entitled to an opinion . . . I've only heard a live demo of the Rockerverb at PMT ages ago and it was impressive . . . way better than the AD30TC . . .

DartmoorHedgehog

Hmm... it's sounding more like Rockerverb or Rocker then I reckon.  Have to find some nice well-recorded demos of the Rocker - I hadn't really been looking for those until you lot reminded me of them.

ThePrettyDamned

The Rockerverb seems to divide opinion.  

I love it.  

It's got plenty of gain, and can get that 'low-to-medium-but-still-heavy-as-balls' sound quite nicely, but some folks don't seem to get along with them.  

Try before you buy, for sure.  

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

The Rockerverb seems to divide opinion.  

I love it.  

It's got plenty of gain, and can get that 'low-to-medium-but-still-heavy-as-balls' sound quite nicely, but some folks don't seem to get along with them.  

Try before you buy, for sure.  

According to a friend of mine who bought one, it sounded great when he tried it in the shop, but when he took it to a gig it completely disappeared in the mix. Luckily he was able to return it before they'd sold the Mesa he traded in against it...

Having gigged with the guitarist in my band playing through a Rocker 30, I can guarantee that didn't happen.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The Rockerverb seems to divide opinion.  

I love it.  

It's got plenty of gain, and can get that 'low-to-medium-but-still-heavy-as-balls' sound quite nicely, but some folks don't seem to get along with them.  

Try before you buy, for sure.  

According to a friend of mine who bought one, it sounded great when he tried it in the shop, but when he took it to a gig it completely disappeared in the mix. Luckily he was able to return it before they'd sold the Mesa he traded in against it...

Having gigged with the guitarist in my band playing through a Rocker 30, I can guarantee that didn't happen.

Ah, mine was at 'loud shop volume' - with a drummer, but no bassist.  

I could easily believe it, it's very, very thick sounding rather than punchy.  

DartmoorHedgehog

OK thanks.  @ThePrettyDamned, I did try the Rockerverb in the shop - really liked it.  Disappearing in the mix is not what I want though... that's what's made me look at changing amps.  Jim Jones Review use Rockerverbs as far as I could tell and they sounded excellent when I saw them live though.  I think I'll have to find somebody with a Rocker 30 I can have a go with before I make my mind up - no big rush, the Blackstar's just about holding its own at the moment, and I'd rather be sure than buy and sell stuff willy nilly.

Oh, one thing I've never quite understood is the "doesn't like pedals" thing.  I've never used dirt pedals - always bought amps I like the drive sound of - but I do use wah, delay and the odd bit of chorus.  What is it that's bad with some amps compared to others?  Not enough headroom in the preamp for the dirt pedals?

ICBM

Some mush out and lose definition when pushed harder with some pedals - that's the headroom issue, or sometimes just too thick a sound so the result is a muddy sound - and others make edgier-sounding fuzz and distortion pedals sound too harsh (typically caused by a 'bright cap' at some point in the circuit).

It can very much depend on the exact combination of pedal and amp though - some amps which "don't take pedals very well" do, if you find the right pedal.

Cacofonix

This "lost in the mix" thing.  A large part of that is, I think, misunderstanding of the band about how to EQ against each other.

I had my Nomad at a gig the other week, and had it dialed in just perfect for home use, a warm jazzy sound.  It could not be heard, even at full volume.

I realised what had happened (it was sitting squarely in the bass frequencies) and turned the treble up.  From "it's too quiet" to "it's too loud now".  I had to turn the volume down to about 2/3 at that point.  A lot of people came to have a look at it that day.

Obviously some amps are voiced to sit nearer the bass than the treble, hence the idea of a treble boost in the loop, but getting the bassist to narrow his scope can pay dividends with a more punchy sound from him, and a clear guitar sound.