Asking for a CITES update

monoamine

Having a Les Paul built in the US and wanting to ship it to the UK. I've read lots online about CITES and the need for appropriate import/export forms but I wonder what people's experiences have been so far this year...

Anyone have any 'friends' who snuck rosewood in without doing the proper paperwork?

There's a footnote at the bottom of one of the documents saying that for instruments containing rosewood being shipped for personal use then no certificate is needed, which I though was interesting.

WezV

Is it worth a flight so you can bring it in as hand luggage?

russianbear

I can help you import it, for 10%

gavin_axecaster

monoamine said:

There's a footnote at the bottom of one of the documents saying that for instruments containing rosewood being shipped for personal use then no certificate is needed, which I though was interesting.

I wouldn't try using that to avoid the paperwork. In this instance it is a commercial transaction. "Personal use" means when travelling with the item, or shipping across borders when relocating or bands/musicians travelling.
Surely the builder should know all this? He's going to need to get the export documentation his end - you need that in hand before you apply for the import certificate.

JDE

I must confess to not knowing a great deal about CITES (one of the benefits of preferring maple boards! ) but I was under the impression that all of the “work” is down to the seller, not you as a buyer. They have to prepare all the documentation, you just pay the duty as normal. From what I understand without the correct paperwork it won’t even clear customs. 

earwighoney

monoamine said:

Having a Les Paul built in the US and wanting to ship it to the UK. I've read lots online about CITES and the need for appropriate import/export forms but I wonder what people's experiences have been so far this year...

Anyone have any 'friends' who snuck rosewood in without doing the proper paperwork?

There's a footnote at the bottom of one of the documents saying that for instruments containing rosewood being shipped for personal use then no certificate is needed, which I though was interesting.

If you are buying it from the USA, it will be the responsibility of the maker to fill out all the relevant forms.  USA have a very specific set of forms which have everything by species/scientific name and for the sale I think the maker should provide the relevant certificate for the rosewood. 

The personal use thing is an interesting one, but I can't see it happening as the instrument will need to be insured for postage (unless you pick it up personally) and consequently it's full value will have to be declared.  

USA Customs are supposed to be a f*cking nightmare.  On another forum a guy who runs a guitar shop said they drilled out parts of guitars for scientific testing.   

Kylef

If customs do impound it, would they keep it until the correct documents were produced for the guitar, or could it be sent back to the sender?

guitars4you

It will require a USA export CITES licence which you will have arrange the seller to sort out for you - it will then need a EU import licence - to be honest I'm not sure if you or the seller needs to arrange this - contact these people for help on that

If you bring it back on the plane with you, whilst you won't need a licence as such, you will need documentation (with make, model, age + date of purchase) to show it contains rosewood (assuming it does) as a precaution to show it is exempt from CITES

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

Bridgehouse

Kylef said:

If customs do impound it, would they keep it until the correct documents were produced for the guitar, or could it be sent back to the sender?

They have the power to destroy it.

fandango

Bridgehouse said:

Kylef said:

If customs do impound it, would they keep it until the correct documents were produced for the guitar, or could it be sent back to the sender?

They have the power to destroy it.

Message from Her Majesty’s Customs:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nm6DO_7px1I

notanon

If there was a store selling via eBay in America and they say via eBay message that they have all the CITES documents for a 2016 guitar would you buy it with confidence? What happens if customs smashes it to pieces would you be able to claim?

guitars4you

notanon said:

If there was a store selling via eBay in America and they say via eBay message that they have all the CITES documents for a 2016 guitar would you buy it with confidence? What happens if customs smashes it to pieces would you be able to claim?

you can ask to see the copy of the CITES certificate - I'd be a touch cautious about them stating they have one, as if it is listed in the USA and intended to be sold within the USA then no need for a CITES certificate - So why would they want to pay and apply for something they probably don't need

I can sell any guitar within the EU without a CITES certificate - so I'm not going to apply and pay for a CITES certificate to send a guitar outside the EU, when 99% of my sales are within the EU

Not sure if insurance would cover a failed customs clearance as it can be deemed as 'illegal' to be shipped and as such why would an insurance company pay out - Do drug barons insure their goods to be shipped to the EU and hope customs/police don't seize them - I don't know for sure but I would lean towards not likely

notanon

@guitars4you some good points. To be fair they did reply with "we have the proper document here & will fill it out in the presence of a representative from the USDA prior to shipment." So maybe they have the actual form but not applied.

I don't mean customs smash it up because it is illegal. I mean smash it up whilst trying to determine if it is illegal. Somebody on TFB mentioned they can legally drill it looking for drugs or whatever.

notanon

They have just added "Because the rules vary from country to country as it relates to CITES & what is required from the recipient, you really should contact your own import authority in the United Kingdom & ask them if there is anything you yourself need to do ahead of time. 

As for us, all we are required to do is fill out the one page document & have it signed off by a representative from USDA"

guitars4you

notanon said:

They have just added "Because the rules vary from country to country as it relates to CITES & what is required from the recipient, you really should contact your own import authority in the United Kingdom & ask them if there is anything you yourself need to do ahead of time. 

As for us, all we are required to do is fill out the one page document & have it signed off by a representative from USDA"

not sure how it works in the USA for an application - but in the UK you obtain the form (download it as required) send it in with payment and wait 3-6 weeks for it to arrive - so maybe they have the form but don't know about waiting time in the USA

Speak to APHA - info above - and ask if you need a EU import and a USA export CITES - and who applies for the EU version and how

I know Fender have to obtain a USA export and a EU import CITES - 2 separate docs - so don't see why that should be different for you - I've never had to do it so don't know the full criteria

notanon

@guitars4you I feel too edgy to be honest now. Too many things can go wrong gotta follow my gut feeling. Far too much money that I can't afford to lose. Thanks for contributing to discussion though ;-)

guitars4you

notanon said:

@guitars4you I feel too edgy to be honest now. Too many things can go wrong gotta follow my gut feeling. Far too much money that I can't afford to lose. Thanks for contributing to discussion though ;-)

I hear many USA stores can no longer be bothered to send goods out of the USA as the hassle and chances of things going wrong is to much trouble - In many ways I've adopted a similar policy now about selling and sending out of the EU - to many issues to attend to and might go wrong and who has to sort it out ? - me or the buyer - Enough sales within the EU that I don't need to get involved

BGG

It's a pain in the arse
I bought a used Duesenberg Outlaw for a bargain price from a dealer in Switzerland, they applied for the export certificate and sent it to me. Then I applied for the import certificate. Once received they were both sent back to Switzerland. Once the guitar was shipped bloody UK customs had if for two weeks even after sending proof of purchase. All for e rosewood fingerboard.

I'll never import again, too much hassle

Three-ColourSunburst

guitars4you said:

I hear many USA stores can no longer be bothered to send goods out of the USA as the hassle and chances of things going wrong is to much trouble - In many ways I've adopted a similar policy now about selling and sending out of the EU - to many issues to attend to and might go wrong and who has to sort it out ? - me or the buyer - Enough sales within the EU that I don't need to get involved

After Brexit you might have to change your policy, or restrict yourself to UK sales only.

(Just look at the post below yours about the hassles involved in buying a guitar from Switzerland - and in many ways Switzerland abides by EU law to make trade as easy as is possible.)

guitars4you

Three-ColourSunburst said:

guitars4you said:

I hear many USA stores can no longer be bothered to send goods out of the USA as the hassle and chances of things going wrong is to much trouble - In many ways I've adopted a similar policy now about selling and sending out of the EU - to many issues to attend to and might go wrong and who has to sort it out ? - me or the buyer - Enough sales within the EU that I don't need to get involved

After Brexit you might have to change your policy, or restrict yourself to UK sales only.

(Just look at the post below yours about the hassles involved in buying a guitar from Switzerland - and in many ways Switzerland abides by EU law to make trade as easy as is possible.)

can't see no barriers been erected for trade via Brexit - both sides don't need/want it - my gut feeling - but I hear what you say

Kylef

So last week I was browsing my dream Rickenbacker, a Rose Morris 1997, when I found one in Japan from my ideal year - first year run 1986. 

With CITES in the back of my mind, I decided to go for it and chance it. Spent 5 days in customs so I was fearing the worst, but no, a bill through today to pay customs and it was ready to be delivered from the local depot when paid. I went in today to get it and nothing asked about CITES or the like! 

Happy experience, but probably wouldn't chance it again. After the 3rd day stuck in customs I wasn't very upbeat about getting it!