Preamps and cab sims for recording.

Neill

As a new member I'm not entirely sure this is the right place for this thread but here goes.

Long story short, I used to play in a covers band, then a combination of factors (one being a nasty accident which mangled the tendons in my left hand) caused me to pack in playing live.  Years have passed and like a lot of folk of my generation I have ear problems so it's very unlikely I'll play in a band again but I still play for my own (and occasionally others) amusement.   

When the band folded I sold most of my gear, which included a nice Yamaha AW4416 HD multitrack recorder.  I've never been entirely happy with DAW's so when I started playing again I replaced the Yamaha with a Zoom R24.  In many respects I wished I had just got another 4416 but that's another story.  Now I'm looking at the options for routing the guitar into the multitracker.

For live stuff I've had a variety of amps always with, at least, a valve preamp. Then when Variax came along I was seduced by the ease of changing keys/tunings/guitar models etc which was wonderful for covers, and eventually I ended up using a Pod XT live straight into the PA.         

I still have the Variax and the Pod, but the old Pod is no good for DI recording, the cabinet simulations are the weak point, IMO.

What I want is a DI solution that gives the "feel" of a valve preamp and when recorded actually sounds like a miked up cabinet.  

I see all sorts of "new" stuff on the market now that professes to do this.  My leaning is towards something like the Two Notes preamp pedals, but it seems that any valve preamp is going to need a dedicated cab simulator.  The cost of a decent preamp and a cab sim is about the same as a Helix which offers a lot more besides...   Or is a proper valve amp and a loadbox a better solution..?

I hope by now you see where I'm coming from.  I was hoping that other members of the forum more in touch with new developments might help me get through all the hype on Youtube.  Yamaha for instance are doing a very good job of promoting the Helix but I would take some convincing that it is considerably better than my old POD for recording DI.   

 

 

thecolourbox

I do various iterations of this kind of setup at home so thought I'd throw my tuppence in as I'm not often in a position to help on here due to being less knowledgeable than others. 

I play through studio monitor speakers but have also used standard HiFi or even a TV sound bar with a bass woofer.

A Mesa V Twin pedal might be of interest as that feels very valve amp like and has a few different output options including cabinet simulated. You get a clean, blues crunch and a lead type channel. 

I have an AMT Pangaea which is a small box which loads speaker impulse responses (IR) which generally sound better than "wired in" speaker simulations. I don't understand how they work but you download a file onto the unit, and play through it, and it sounds like a speaker. I don't use it as I bought another multi fx that can load these as well but it was effective once set up. A bit fiddly to set up though.

The AMT Pangaea can be used with either a preamp (I use valve and solid state ones, could also use a modeling preamp) or indeed as you say a dummy loaded valve amp. However doing this you'd also need to buy a dummy load (resistive loads are cheaper but reactive sound better) and all of a sudden you have a much bigger size rig which for playing at home can be inconvenient. That may not be an issue to you and you do at least then have an amp if you need to play out in public.

Incidentally this was recorded using a Variax into a Fender Princeton, dummy loaded by a Jet City Jettenuator, into the Pangaea on a Deluxe Reverb cab sim, see what you think:

Hope that helps a bit

domforr

I currently use an Effectrode Blackbird going into Two Notes Wall of Sound for the cab sim (it's the software version of Two Notes and doesn't cost that much). I think the Two Notes Le clean and the Kingsley Squire would both work as alternatives (I'm sure there are more). This is through my DAW and monitors and works very nicely.

thecolourbox

domforr said:

I currently use an Effectrode Blackbird going into Two Notes Wall of Sound for the cab sim (it's the software version of Two Notes and doesn't cost that much). I think the Two Notes Le clean and the Kingsley Squire would both work as alternatives (I'm sure there are more). This is through my DAW and monitors and works very nicely.

I had a Kingsley Squire (fender blackface model) and was not as keen, though mileage may vary. I found my Jhs Twin Twelve pedal with gain down through the cab sim sounded nicer. I think by most accounts the Blackbird is better

Dodge

As above, a decent preamp into impulse responses are the way to go.  My quick and dirty rig at home is an AMT V-1 into Ableton, with Ignite's TPA-1 power amp VST plug in and NadIR hosting some decent impulses.  My serious rig is two 60's AC30's into a reactive loadbox and through the same impulse responses.  They're surprisingly close as it happens - a big part of this is the AMT which is a very good preamp, albeit JFET and not valve.  (I have one for sale if anyone is interested - I've ended up with two of them)

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

domforr

Agree the Blackbird is better (and pricier) than the Squire, although I haven't tried the Two Notes Le Clean so that may also be worth a shot.

Neill

Dodge said:

As above, a decent preamp into impulse responses are the way to go.  My quick and dirty rig at home is an AMT V-1 into Ableton, with Ignite's TPA-1 power amp VST plug in and NadIR hosting some decent impulses.  My serious rig is two 60's AC30's into a reactive loadbox and through the same impulse responses.  They're surprisingly close as it happens - a big part of this is the AMT which is a very good preamp, albeit JFET and not valve.  (I have one for sale if anyone is interested - I've ended up with two of them)

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

victorludorum

Amplitube Custom Shop is worth getting as it's free (or at least it used to be). The standard models that come with it are very useable if you're patient with them. I bought the 5E3 model from the custom shop, and it wasn't expensive. I think it's good and very easy to use with a stand-alone machine if you have a good interface output. I have an ESI one that is tiny and works well.

Dodge

Neill said:

Dodge said:

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

If you have a Windows-based PC, download the following (all free):

savihost from here: http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm
NadIR from here: http://www.kvraudio.com/developer/ignite-amps

Source some free impulse responses from here (for example): https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2010/10/01/free-sample-shootout-6-best-free-guitar-cabinet-impulse-responses/

Stick your Pod into your soundcard line in, disable the speaker sims.

Launch savihost, load the dll for NadIR and then load your downloaded inpulses into NadIR.  You might get horrendous latency  depending on your sound card (i.e. the delay between playing a note and hearing it) but it'll still give you an idea how much better impulses sound than what you've got already.

If you're pleased with what you hear, you can go from there. 

steamabacus

Neill said:

Dodge said:

As above, a decent preamp into impulse responses are the way to go.  My quick and dirty rig at home is an AMT V-1 into Ableton, with Ignite's TPA-1 power amp VST plug in and NadIR hosting some decent impulses.  My serious rig is two 60's AC30's into a reactive loadbox and through the same impulse responses.  They're surprisingly close as it happens - a big part of this is the AMT which is a very good preamp, albeit JFET and not valve.  (I have one for sale if anyone is interested - I've ended up with two of them)

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

This video demonstrates precisely that - old POD into modern Two-Notes Torpedo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SS9434fJg

I've been DI'ing for years but with old-school analogue speaker emulation (a pair of Award-Session JD10s in stereo) which is ok but I'm having my head turned by modern digital cab sims. I still can't quite work out what to go for though - Two-Notes Torpedo CAB is expensive and mono only, CabDryVR sounds disappointing in the demos I've seen (and looks garish), the AMT Pangaea is a bit too 'techy' for a Luddite like me .... the one I've been gravitating towards is the Neunaber Iconoclast for its simplicity but I'd like to hear some less 'metal' demos. A new one that's just come to my attention is the CabZeus which looks interesting.

I love the old AW4416s! A mate of mine still has two of them and I used one for some 'live-in-the-studio' improv recordings a few years back.

Neill

steamabacus said:

Neill said:

Dodge said:

As above, a decent preamp into impulse responses are the way to go.  My quick and dirty rig at home is an AMT V-1 into Ableton, with Ignite's TPA-1 power amp VST plug in and NadIR hosting some decent impulses.  My serious rig is two 60's AC30's into a reactive loadbox and through the same impulse responses.  They're surprisingly close as it happens - a big part of this is the AMT which is a very good preamp, albeit JFET and not valve.  (I have one for sale if anyone is interested - I've ended up with two of them)

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

This video demonstrates precisely that - old POD into modern Two-Notes Torpedo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SS9434fJg

I've been DI'ing for years but with old-school analogue speaker emulation (a pair of Award-Session JD10s in stereo) which is ok but I'm having my head turned by modern digital cab sims. I still can't quite work out what to go for though - Two-Notes Torpedo CAB is expensive and mono only, CabDryVR sounds disappointing in the demos I've seen (and looks garish), the AMT Pangaea is a bit too 'techy' for a Luddite like me .... the one I've been gravitating towards is the Neunaber Iconoclast for its simplicity but I'd like to hear some less 'metal' demos. A new one that's just come to my attention is the CabZeus which looks interesting.

I love the old AW4416s! A mate of mine still has two of them and I used one for some 'live-in-the-studio' improv recordings a few years back.

Thanks for the link Steamabacus, quite interesting and the guy on the right makes a very valid point about the POD being quite acceptable when you hear it in the mix - this is my problem.  When I was playing in a band situation the sound quality of the guitar wasn't a big deal and certainly not on clean settings, but now I'm just concentrating on playing the guitar for myself I can't accept the shortcomings of the POD. 

The only decent demos I've seen are those that Pete Thorn has done, and reading between the lines I think he shows more enthusiasm for the Torpedo than any of the competition.  I suspect this is what I'm going to end up with, but returning to my initial post what holds me back is that if I then end up buying a decent preamp pedal the cost of the whole exercise is about the same as a Helix LT.

I got my money back on the AW4416 but I wish I still had it.  They don't fetch much on ebay these days I suspect because of the size and the lengthy learning curve but I can see me buying another just for the sound quality.  I'm a fan of all things Yamaha which is one reason why I keep thinking about the Helix, I suspect Yamaha's involvement in this has maybe unlocked the true potential of the Line 6 gear, plus I already have the Variax.    

Dodge

@Neill ;

Mooer are releasing a pedal that supports 3rd party impulses:  https://www.thomann.de/gb/mooer_ge_200.htm

The videos sound pretty good to me, and for ~£250 odd.

Neill

Dodge said:

Neill said:

Dodge said:

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

If you have a Windows-based PC, download the following (all free):

savihost from here: http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm
NadIR from here: http://www.kvraudio.com/developer/ignite-amps

Source some free impulse responses from here (for example): https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2010/10/01/free-sample-shootout-6-best-free-guitar-cabinet-impulse-responses/

Stick your Pod into your soundcard line in, disable the speaker sims.

Launch savihost, load the dll for NadIR and then load your downloaded inpulses into NadIR.  You might get horrendous latency  depending on your sound card (i.e. the delay between playing a note and hearing it) but it'll still give you an idea how much better impulses sound than what you've got already.

If you're pleased with what you hear, you can go from there. 

Thanks for that suggestion Dodge, I tried it with some free IR's but it seems the computer I used renamed the files which NadIR (and another I tried) wouldn't recognise and as you say the latency was unacceptable anyway.  

Neill

Dodge said:

Neill said:

Dodge said:

I suspect trying your Pod XT with the cabinets bypassed (I don't remember if this is possible on the XT) into impulse responses will show you where the weak link is.  It's almost certainly the Pod speaker sims which I remember being slightly better than crap.  ;-)

I think you're right - I have an urge to dive straight into the preamp market but given the XT does allow you to disable the speaker simulations, the sensible course would be to try it with a decent IR unit.  As I'm not using a DAW it has to be a hardware solution.   Being out of the loop for a while, IR technology is something new to me so I appreciate any advice.  The Pangea looks good value but I can't find any on sale at the moment.  I was looking at the Digitech "CabdryVR" as a cheap way of exploring this new technology but AFAIK there's no facility for downloading IR's.

If you have a Windows-based PC, download the following (all free):

savihost from here: http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm
NadIR from here: http://www.kvraudio.com/developer/ignite-amps

Source some free impulse responses from here (for example): https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2010/10/01/free-sample-shootout-6-best-free-guitar-cabinet-impulse-responses/

Stick your Pod into your soundcard line in, disable the speaker sims.

Launch savihost, load the dll for NadIR and then load your downloaded inpulses into NadIR.  You might get horrendous latency  depending on your sound card (i.e. the delay between playing a note and hearing it) but it'll still give you an idea how much better impulses sound than what you've got already.

If you're pleased with what you hear, you can go from there. 

Thanks for that Dodge, I tried this but yes the latency was unacceptable and my PC insisted on renaming the IR files which the host wouldn't recognise so I gave up in the end.