Valves & Tubes

JamesJones123

Hi Guys,

Apologies if this question has already been answered - if so, please do point me in the right direction.

I am looking at a little project and I am looking for some information on guitar amplifier values and tubes such as:

1. How often should they be replaced?
2. Do newer amps have a set up which warrants a replacement value/tube or are they slowly being discontinued?
3. Where seems to be the best place to go to buy them

Sorry if these questions seem a little cryptic, I have been asked to invest in a company which supplies them and thought why not start with the direct customers (you know best & it seems very hard to get any objective data), if you can think of anything more that would be great and of course, most importantly, as a customer of these products what more would you like to see?

Thanks in advance guys.

thermionic

Tubes don't sell at all well here in the UK, guitar players seem to prefer valves. In North America though, it's the exact opposite.

webrthomson

1 - depends on usage and amp type - octal power valves (8 pin) valves used loud regularly - once a year, at least - used at home probably a lot less. Preamp valves 12AX7 / ECC83 a lot less frequently, TBH you will probably know when either fail.

 2 - not 100% sure I understand the question - new valves are produced in China, Russia and eastern Europe - new production does not come close to the quality of the hey day of US production when they were needed for military and computing needs, but are more that satisfactory for audio requirements.

3 - there are many stockists:

Watford valves
Hot Rox UK
(there is also a member on here who does but I've fogotton his site at the moment!)
Valve Queen (US)
Euro Valves (US)

Hope that helps!

thermionic

I doubt any amp manufacturers guarantee valves - in fact most will specifically exclude them.

The other good UK seller who's on here is http://www.karltone.co.uk which will give you a good idea of brands & prices.

RandallFlagg

Morgan amps offer 90 days warranty on valves in new amp purchases, which is honoured through the dealer.

webrthomson

thermionic said:

I doubt any amp manufacturers guarantee valves - in fact most will specifically exclude them.

The other good UK seller who's on here is http://www.karltone.co.uk which will give you a good idea of brands & prices.

Kartone - that the one I was thinking other one I was thinking of!

RandallFlagg said:

Morgan amps offer 90 days warranty on valves in new amp purchases, which is honoured through the dealer.

^ This - the only experiance I have of this is Diezel, who do indeed warrent the valvles for 90 days

pintspiller

I had a Peavey Royal 8. It used EL84 power valve and was generally replaced annually. The 1974  Sound City I have uses EL34s and the original Mullards were only replaced recently as I was worried that they might go and take other components with them. Whether e that is down to the type of valve or brand I am not sure.

RiftAmps

JamesJones123 said:

I am looking at a little project and I am looking for some information on guitar amplifier values and tubes such as:

1. How often should they be replaced?

Either when they fail or start to sound shite.

If you want the technical answer - some datasheets will give the 'Life Performance' figures, so someone with a correctly calibrated valve tester can measure certain performance characteristics and decide whether it warrants replacement

2. Do newer amps have a set up which warrants a replacement value/tube or are they slowly being discontinued?

As long as guitarists want valve amplifiers, then mnfrs will still offer them. Replacement valves form part of that. It's classic S&D.

In my opinion, the market demand for audio valves with remain at its current state for easily the next 50 years. I can't say it will increase unless the HiFi market really steps up a gear again.

3. Where seems to be the best place to go to buy them

 Either direct from the mnfr, or one of many resellers.

I buy direct, spending £400-£1000 per month on valve stock.

I have been asked to invest in a company which supplies them

OK, I am on good terms with a few of the UK based resellers.

The market is high volume, low margin. Essentially, you need to be shifting a lot of boxes to be profitable, with a huge investment in stock - if you don't have it, you can't sell it.

Modulus_Amps

RiftAmps said:

JamesJones123 said: I have been asked to invest in a company which supplies them

OK, I am on good terms with a few of the UK based resellers.

The market is high volume, low margin. Essentially, you need to be shifting a lot of boxes to be profitable, with a huge investment in stock - if you don't have it, you can't sell it.

 
How much investment and what do you expect to get out of your investment?
What does said company bring to the table that others don't, why will people choose to buy from said company and not from others.

I sell a small range of valves too, I mostly stock them for supplying with amp kits, having looked into it the margins were not big enough to warrant the significant capital expenditure at the time, the guys that do well with it offer the upselling of testing and matching etc

crunchman

1: Depends on the amp and valve type.  When I had a Peavey Classic 30, I was replacing 4 EL84 power valves at least once a year.  With the amp I have now, I'm only on my second set of 6L6s in 10 years.

2: All valve amps will eventually need new valves.

3: Best place is online retailers like Karltone and Watford Valves.

I would say that the market for valves for guitar amps is likely to decline as digital modeling/profiling eats up market share.  I spend more of my time playing through a digital device now than I do a real amp.  That means I'm putting less wear on my valves and replacing them less often.  There are some people who have ditched valves entirely and gone completely digital.  They are a minority at the moment, but it's a growing minority

 With the ongoing improvements in technology and reductions in price for the digital stuff, I suspect the valve market (for guitar amps) will shrink significantly over the next 15 to 20 years.  It won't completely die out, but it will be smaller.  I suspect valves will become like vinyl for music.  There will be an ongoing niche market, but the mainstream will be digital.

Modulus_Amps

crunchman said:

 With the ongoing improvements in technology and reductions in price for the digital stuff, I suspect the valve market (for guitar amps) will shrink significantly over the next 15 to 20 years.  It won't completely die out, but it will be smaller.  I suspect valves will become like vinyl for music.  There will be an ongoing niche market, but the mainstream will be digital.

When this happens I would assume that valve prices will go up and margins will go up too, wait till Marshall and Fender stop building mass produced valve amps, then prices will start to go up allot

Phil_aka_Pip

As per other posts, the size of the valve market for guitarists may well decrease, due to the modelling getting pretty good. I reckon the size of the valve market for HiFi will continue at its current size for a while. It has already seen its drop-off as solid state HiFi took over the mainstream from valves back in the 70s but there's a hardcore of valve enthusiasts and new  valve products hit the market regularly so they ain't going away

The thought had occurred to me that the main use for valves (market volume wise) is actually in guitar amplifiers, and sales of valves to guitar amp makers must be propping up the supply to the hifi amp makers. Things may become more difficult for hifi if guitarists forsake valves in droves because then there won't be the incentive to make so many valves and the hifi people will find them harder to get. I hope I'm wrong ...

ICBM

RiftAmps said:

As long as guitarists want valve amplifiers, then mnfrs will still offer them. Replacement valves form part of that. It's classic S&D.

In my opinion, the market demand for audio valves with remain at its current state for easily the next 50 years. I can't say it will increase unless the HiFi market really steps up a gear again.

I hope so, but I could see a tipping point being reached when the classic rock generation start to hang up their guitars, digital amps really nail the response as well as the sound of valves, and popular music moves away from electric guitars as a primary instrument (or at least from being used only for traditional sounds) - a perfect storm where demand falls just as the alternatives finally match what the market wants.

crunchman said:

 With the ongoing improvements in technology and reductions in price for the digital stuff, I suspect the valve market (for guitar amps) will shrink significantly over the next 15 to 20 years.  It won't completely die out, but it will be smaller.  I suspect valves will become like vinyl for music.  There will be an ongoing niche market, but the mainstream will be digital.

It's happened before with at least two technologies I can think of, as well as vinyl - CRT monitors, which until only about 15 years ago, were accepted as being the only serious choice by graphics professionals because flat screens didn't look quite right, and have now gone completely - and film photography, which hasn't died out completely but is now only a tiny niche market. In both cases it was when digital reached the same perceived quality as analogue at the same time as becoming cheaper.

Modulus_Amps said:

When this happens I would assume that valve prices will go up and margins will go up too, wait till Marshall and Fender stop building mass produced valve amps, then prices will start to go up allot

Exactly, which will kill off the market for lower-priced valve amps even faster.

I know I've thought this before and been wrong! But it does seem different this time, with many more pro guitar players using digital both in the studio and live, and a definite drop in the prevalence of 'rock' guitar sounds in popular music.

jpfamps

JamesJones123 said:

Hi Guys,

Apologies if this question has already been answered - if so, please do point me in the right direction.

I am looking at a little project and I am looking for some information on guitar amplifier values and tubes such as:

1. How often should they be replaced?
2. Do newer amps have a set up which warrants a replacement value/tube or are they slowly being discontinued?
3. Where seems to be the best place to go to buy them

Sorry if these questions seem a little cryptic, I have been asked to invest in a company which supplies them and thought why not start with the direct customers (you know best & it seems very hard to get any objective data), if you can think of anything more that would be great and of course, most importantly, as a customer of these products what more would you like to see?

Thanks in advance guys.

When you say supply valves, I assume the company just tests / resells existing products.

In which case there are plenty of companies already doing this (of the top of my head there are at least 7 companies in the UK doing this already), so the only way to expand will be to take business of other sellers, which means you will either need to be cheaper, or get reputation for giving better service.

DJH83004

I think JPF has hit the nail on the head with his last comment, there are a good number of companies out there who have invested heavily in bulk valve testing equipment, staff training and relationships with manufacturers, (my local company HotRox being a classic example), so not sure what USP this company could possibly provide, extra over these existing companies?  

crunchman

DJH83004 said:

I think JPF has hit the nail on the head with his last comment, there are a good number of companies out there who have invested heavily in bulk valve testing equipment, staff training and relationships with manufacturers, (my local company HotRox being a classic example), so not sure what USP this company could possibly provide, extra over these existing companies?  

A couple of the existing companies don't have the best reputation on customer service.  One of them also has a very creaky website.  You can look at old threads on this forum for details.

I must say I've never heard a bad word about Karltone though.

Sassafras

I would like to say that the death knell has sounded for digital technology and valves will become the next boom industry but we all know that's not true.