Why is "Free movement" a core principle of the EU?

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Obviously, the EU aren't going to change this

However, I can't see that a free trade zone must have free movement of labour 
Is there something I am missing?

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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 452
    edited November 2017
    A single market. That means a single market for labour as well.
    A 'free trade' zone is a different animal.
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  • I don't know either. I don't believe there is any good reason for it.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
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  • Obviously, the EU aren't going to change this

    However, I can't see that a free trade zone must have free movement of labour 
    Is there something I am missing?



    Think of it in administration terms. No freedom of movement in a free trade zone would mean more cash spent on staff to administer visas, border guards, all of that. No freedom of movement would make an FTZ less efficient to my mind. 


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    Whether or not it's necessary, it is a core principle of the European single market and you're right that they will not negotiate on it. If we want to remain part of the single market for all the benefits that it will bring to British industry, we have to accept that.

    If a private members club has a rule that says a jacket and tie must be worn at all times, and you want to be a member of that club because it brings you benefits, you have to wear them regardless of whether you think they're silly and unnecessary.

    It simply comes down to whether you think we get more out of the single market than free movement of labour costs us.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ICBM said:

    It simply comes down to whether you think we get more out of the single market than free movement of labour costs us.
    I'd mind less if it WAS just free movement of labour. If you've got a job lined up you're welcome, if you haven't then piss off. Unfortunately they take it to mean "free movement of looking for work and claiming benefits while you're at it"
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
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  • ICBM said:
    Whether or not it's necessary, it is a core principle of the European single market and you're right that they will not negotiate on it. If we want to remain part of the single market for all the benefits that it will bring to British industry, we have to accept that.

    If a private members club has a rule that says a jacket and tie must be worn at all times, and you want to be a member of that club because it brings you benefits, you have to wear them regardless of whether you think they're silly and unnecessary.

    It simply comes down to whether you think we get more out of the single market than free movement of labour costs us.
    I'm not debating that, just wondered where the rule came from and why
    I think it started as some idea about uniting German and French workers
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    ToneControl said:

    I'm not debating that, just wondered where the rule came from and why
    I think it started as some idea about uniting German and French workers
    It's probably part of the attempt to prepare for the Fourth Reich :).
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    Phil_aka_Pip said:

    I'd mind less if it WAS just free movement of labour. If you've got a job lined up you're welcome, if you haven't then piss off. Unfortunately they take it to mean "free movement of looking for work and claiming benefits while you're at it"
    Actually that's not true - unemployed EU workers can't claim benefits in the UK. That was ruled on just before the referendum, although no-one seemed to pay any attention. They can still come to look for work, but not claim benefits - and that was when were actually in the EU...
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 431
    ICBM said:
    ToneControl said:

    I'm not debating that, just wondered where the rule came from and why
    I think it started as some idea about uniting German and French workers
    It's probably part of the attempt to prepare for the Fourth Reich :).
    It's largely irrelevant now because we've opted for a different path but I'm sure that there were provisions within the treaty that enshrined freedom of movement that allowed countries to impose restrictions based on ability to support oneself.

     The UK (Blair government) chose not to do this? Since then the UK perception was EU = Completely unfettered immigration? I've travelled around Europe widely and came to the conclusion that each country interpreted EU legislation differently and I'm not clear if there were ever significant penalties imposed for breaching these laws. 

    I guess on the economic principle of "freedom of movement" it makes sense from a market theory perspective? If the UK didn't speak English and wasn't as successful economically in relative terms, we'd probably feel very differently about it.
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  • GP services and treatment in an A&E department, are free of charge for anyone, regardless of how long they have been in or intend to stay in the United Kingdom.

    This needs to change!

    “Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore”
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251

    GP services and treatment in an A&E department, are free of charge for anyone, regardless of how long they have been in or intend to stay in the United Kingdom.

    This needs to change!

    I would probably agree about quite a lot of GP services, but A&E? Are you suggesting that a person arriving in an ambulance should be asked for their payment details before they're treated - and presumably refused if they can't provide any? How about if their condition is life-threatening?
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1244
    Obviously, the EU aren't going to change this

    However, I can't see that a free trade zone must have free movement of labour 
    Is there something I am missing?

    The politicians like free movement because an MEP still earns a fucking fortune with expenses and a huge pension at German standards, they aren’t going to be undercut by an Estonian MEP earning a fraction of their German salary. 
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited November 2017
    I can see how freedom of labour might have to be a principle of a single market free trade zone, but not freedom of movement generally.   The EU won't even relent on the latter, though.
     
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  • Free movement is the right of a person who is economically active in the host member state. Contrary to what people have been told it only is the entitlement of the visiting EU national where he or she has found work or during a 6 month period where he is seeking employment. The existing law allows people who are not economically active to be removed to their own member state.
    Free movement rights also extend to retired persons and people who are self sufficient financially or students who are self sufficient and have full medical insurance.
    People are routinely served with removal orders in other member states where they are found not to be economically active. EU free movement rights does not give people a free ride. If there was a problem in the UK it was because the law wasn’t properly applied.


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  • I  just had a look for other FTAs
    here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilateral_free-trade_agreements
    many don't have free movement
    the most recognisable being that there are no tariffs (or will be eventually) between Mexico and the US,
    but as we know, there is no right of free movement of labour

    As far as I can tell, the objective of the EU's free movement of labour is Economic integration, which is also evidenced by the use of a single currency. I have no idea why people think this is independent of political unification in the long term
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    ToneControl said:

    As far as I can tell, the objective of the EU's free movement of labour is Economic integration, which is also evidenced by the use of a single currency. I have no idea why people think this is independent of political unification in the long term
    I agree it is one of the original goals - along with going back to the original concept of the EU, of preventing war in Europe… the idea being that if nationalities mix, then they can't be encouraged to hate and fight each other. But I would say the wars in the former Yugoslavia conclusively proved that idea wrong.

    Whether political unification is still a genuine goal of any serious politicians in the EU *countries* - discounting the dreamers in the EU administration itself - is a totally different question. My opinion is that it isn't, but has been used by anti-EU campaigners as a bogeyman to scare people. I'm absolutely sure that political integration will never happen in my lifetime (I'm 50), and probably well beyond that.

    Slightly worrying that someone has wis'd my Fourth Reich comment :). Can you really see the French and Germans agreeing to share a common country? ;)

    Whether free movement of labour is actually necessary in order to give a level playing field for businesses across Europe is a different question - personally I don't think it is, but I also don't see it as the problem that many people who voted Leave undoubtedly do. If anything I think it's a good thing. I agree with not allowing free movement of *people* without a means of economic support - but that in fact isn't the situation, contrary to popular belief.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 911
    edited November 2017
    ICBM said:

     Can you really see the French and Germans agreeing to share a common country?
    they were under Charlemagne.

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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2229
    Colms2005 said:
    People are routinely served with removal orders in other member states where they are found not to be economically active. EU free movement rights does not give people a free ride. If there was a problem in the UK it was because the law wasn’t properly applied.
    Spot on, I wish more people understood this. The Tories in particular have always blamed the EU for their own failings in government in applying the law correctly.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    mellowsun said:
    Colms2005 said:
    People are routinely served with removal orders in other member states where they are found not to be economically active. EU free movement rights does not give people a free ride. If there was a problem in the UK it was because the law wasn’t properly applied.
    Spot on, I wish more people understood this. The Tories in particular have always blamed the EU for their own failings in government in applying the law correctly.
    If you were cynical you might even wonder if it was a deliberate strategy…
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ICBM said:
    Can you really see the French and Germans agreeing to share a common country? ;)
    Isn't that what they're trying to do with their "European project" ?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    ICBM said:
    Can you really see the French and Germans agreeing to share a common country? ;)
    Isn't that what they're trying to do with their "European project" ?
    Only if you believe in the EU bogeyman…

    They do want more economic integration. That is not the same thing as a 'United States Of Europe' at all.

    It's difficult enough to convince the Flemings and the Walloons, or sometimes even the Scots and the English, that they live in the same country. Just imagine how much harder it would be for the French and the Germans.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    ICBM said:
    mellowsun said:
    Colms2005 said:
    People are routinely served with removal orders in other member states where they are found not to be economically active. EU free movement rights does not give people a free ride. If there was a problem in the UK it was because the law wasn’t properly applied.
    Spot on, I wish more people understood this. The Tories in particular have always blamed the EU for their own failings in government in applying the law correctly.
    If you were cynical you might even wonder if it was a deliberate strategy…
    May tried to deport all sorts of people - the dubious 'right' to a family life is one issue. The UK does remove people but they just return. There's a dangerous Polish burglar on the loose in London. He's been prosecuted countless times and deported. He just sneaks back into the UK.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2229
    Fretwired said:
    May tried to deport all sorts of people - the dubious 'right' to a family life is one issue. The UK does remove people but they just return. There's a dangerous Polish burglar on the loose in London. He's been prosecuted countless times and deported. He just sneaks back into the UK.
    Again, that's not the fault of the EU, that's the fault of the UK border agency who keep letting him back in.

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  • May was deporting spouses/splitting families of British nationals, cruel and pointless, much like most Tory practices. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    mellowsun said:
    Fretwired said:
    May tried to deport all sorts of people - the dubious 'right' to a family life is one issue. The UK does remove people but they just return. There's a dangerous Polish burglar on the loose in London. He's been prosecuted countless times and deported. He just sneaks back into the UK.
    Again, that's not the fault of the EU, that's the fault of the UK border agency who keep letting him back in.

    There are defined rules. The Citizens’ Directive provides security of residence for EU citizens living in another Member State by allowing expulsion in limited and clearly defined circumstances on the grounds of public policy and public security (Article 28).

    This includes a sliding scale of enhanced protection, so that EU citizens who have obtained permanent residence can only be expelled on ‘serious’ public security or public policy grounds, and those who have continuously resided in another Member State for the last 10 years can only be expelled from that state on ‘imperative’ grounds of public security.

    The Citizens’ Directive also allows Member States to exclude the entry of EU citizens on public policy and public security grounds, which is also subject to specific limitations (Article 27).

    Public policy and public security tend to be serious - terrorism, people trafficking and organised crime. So things like burglary, drug dealing and so forth don't count. The EU expects the UK to prosecute and jail people guilty of crimes but once released it is virtually impossible to deport them.

    The UK Border Agency have no right to automatically block people unless they are a major threat.
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  • Whereas I'd expect a burglar to be deported. Burglary is IMO serious enough to require it. Don't know about peddling pot though. I don't even think that should be illegal.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 6499
    Why do people hate the idea of free movement? I honestly think that some people would welcome a return to a mediaeval system where you're not allowed to leave your own village.

    "Hey, you can go and live wherever you like in any of these 27 fascinating countries!"
    "Fuck off, leave me alone, I don't want to and I don't want anyone else to be allowed to!"

    It's indicative of how effective a billionaire-owned press is when they can convince a modern day peasantry that freedom to move around is something to be feared, much like they've convinced the same dullards that Human Rights are dirty words leading to needless red tape.  

    As an inveterate traveller who's lived in half a dozen different countries I utterly despair of my fellow man. 
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  • You took the words right out of my mouth.As I said to one leave voter ,you have
    voted to imprison yourself.
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  • p90fool said:

    I utterly despair of my fellow man. 
    Good enough reason not to want to go visit him or have him visit you ;)
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  • I thjnk the main reasons for baulking at "Free Movement" include
    • "they" are insisting on it
    • "they" are not "us"
    • "they" must have reasons for it which benefit "them" more than "us"

    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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