Why is "Free movement" a core principle of the EU?

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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    ^ try telling that to Diane Abbott.
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  • Ro_S said:
    ^ try telling that to Diane Abbott.
    Try telling anything to Diane Abbott
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  • She listened to me when I said there was a 2 for 1 offer at Gregg's yesterday. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    She listened to me when I said there was a 2 for 1 offer at Gregg's yesterday. 
    fattist
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  • Ro_S said:
    She listened to me when I said there was a 2 for 1 offer at Gregg's yesterday. 
    fattist
    I think she's the fattest
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    Ro_S said:
    She listened to me when I said there was a 2 for 1 offer at Gregg's yesterday. 
    fattist
    I think she's the fattest
    the fattest what?   the fattest MP?
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  • Ro_S said:
    Ro_S said:
    She listened to me when I said there was a 2 for 1 offer at Gregg's yesterday. 
    fattist
    I think she's the fattest
    the fattest what?   the fattest MP?
    She's probably the fattest out of you, Heartfeltdawn, and me. She has to be one of the fattest MPs. Shame, she should lay off the pies.
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  • Eric Pickles was pretty hefty when I met him. LIkewise Sir Nicholas Soames prior to his weight loss. She's a round lady but far from huge. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    Eric Pickles was pretty hefty when I met him. LIkewise Sir Nicholas Soames prior to his weight loss. 
    do you we need to know about your dating activities?
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  • Ro_S said:
    Eric Pickles was pretty hefty when I met him. LIkewise Sir Nicholas Soames prior to his weight loss. 
    do you we need to know about your dating activities?

    So homosexual quips involving two male MPs, yesterday you're asking me who my favourite toff MP is whilst saying I don't have to have a hypothetical sexual relationship with them, and we had the infamous Rayner procreation locked thread.

    You do seem to have one or two issues going on. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    Ro_S said:
    Eric Pickles was pretty hefty when I met him. LIkewise Sir Nicholas Soames prior to his weight loss. 
    do you we need to know about your dating activities?

    So homosexual quips involving two male MPs, yesterday you're asking me who my favourite toff MP is whilst saying I don't have to have a hypothetical sexual relationship with them, and we had the infamous Rayner procreation locked thread.

    You do seem to have one or two issues going on. 

    you're the one with an issue.  what's wrong with being homosexual?    scratch the surface, and you soon show your actual colours.   and what about your misogynistic avatar?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470
    edited December 2017
    Ro_S said:

    you're the one with an issue.  what's wrong with being homosexual?    scratch the surface, and you soon show your actual colours.   and what about your misogynistic avatar?

    That moment when an idiot tells an openly bisexual guy that he's got clearly got issues with homosexuals. 

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4a/27/6a/4a276a9b297e8ae904ac3a714203ad3e--star-trek-funny-stuff.jpg
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • @Ro_S there's nothing misogynistic about his avatar!
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  • Ro_SRo_S Frets: 916
    @Heartfeltdawn  -  so, as a bisexual, why would you get your knickers in such twist about the idea of having gone on a date with someone who happened of the same gender?
       
    As per usual, you like to discern offence in anything you encounter. 


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  • Ro_S said:
    @Heartfeltdawn  -  so, as a bisexual, why would you get your knickers in such twist about the idea of having gone on a date with someone who happened of the same gender?
       
    As per usual, you like to discern offence in anything you encounter. 


    I didn't. The eyebrow raising element was how regularly you mention sexual elements involving Parliamentary Members. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • Jock68Jock68 Frets: 155
    Free Movement of People is part of the EU process of removing any sense of culture and sense of Nationhood.  Once both have been removed then everyone is expected to be a European.  It is far easier to manage one group of people with one sense of belonging ( EU German Empire) rather than 28 disparate groups with different agendas..
    Jock
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 237

    No one can be a racist, since the EU says races don't exist:

    According to European Council:
    The European Union rejects theories which attempt to determine the existence of separate human races.
    — Directive 2000/43/EC[143]


    But haven't scientists recently "shown" that 'Chedder Gorge Man' was black and from the middle east, even though the previous version has him as 'white' and  apparently for decades there was no way of showing any difference between black and white and that's way all white racists were wrong?

    I wish "they'd" make up their minds.

    Makes me a little suspicious that what is said about what's going on in Sweden could possibly be not so far from the truth.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470
    @seany65 and what is going on in Sweden? Looking at your comments elsewhere, I have a feeling I already know. 

    By "they", you mean scientists. Not all scientists are the same, they aren't one block, and scientists can be wrong as well. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 237
    @seany65 and what is going on in Sweden? Looking at your comments elsewhere, I have a feeling I already know. 

    By "they", you mean scientists. Not all scientists are the same, they aren't one block, and scientists can be wrong as well. 
    Apparently, if various videos on youtube are to be believed, there is an effort to minimise white swedish culture and history in sweden and 'big up' any/invent some 'evidence' of middle-eastern/islamic culture in sweden.

    I don't know if it's true or not, but if scientists can claim the entire people of an area are black from just one skeleton, and do it without telling us how much of his dna they had, nor tell us why they tried to 'home in' on dna that shows skin colour and eye colour instead of getting an entire genetic profile, nor tell us why one of the scientists felt the need to have his own dna tested and get some genetic markers and send them along with the skeleton's dna sample, nor tell if they were able to test any of his teeth for evidence of the food he ate when he was young (which would tell us whether he was a 'local' or a new immigrant), nor tell us why they did not test any of the other skeletons in the cave, and tell us this skeleton was from one of the first 'Britons' even though neanderthals where here 250,000 years ago I get a bit suspicious that there may be an agenda or may be some incompetence going on.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16961
    Jock68 said:
    Free Movement of People is part of the EU process of removing any sense of culture and sense of Nationhood.  Once both have been removed then everyone is expected to be a European.  It is far easier to manage one group of people with one sense of belonging ( EU German Empire) rather than 28 disparate groups with different agendas..
    I voted to leave but I don't believe this is true - my eldest son's girlfriend is Hungarian and she is proud of her Hungarian heritage but she loves working in the UK.  The Euro zone needs a flexible labour market to ensure economic stability. This means when one area is economically weak people can move to another area to find work. It actually works very well. Look at the UK - we have attracted workers from all over Europe without whom we'd be in trouble. I don't have a problem with free movement if people come looking for work. I just think a country should be able to manage and control the numbers within reason. France and Germany are coming round to the same way of thinking - its not about banning people but ensuring there are resources (housing, healthcare, schools etc) to cope.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470
    seany65 said:
    @seany65 and what is going on in Sweden? Looking at your comments elsewhere, I have a feeling I already know. 

    By "they", you mean scientists. Not all scientists are the same, they aren't one block, and scientists can be wrong as well. 
    Apparently, if various videos on youtube are to be believed, there is an effort to minimise white swedish culture and history in sweden and 'big up' any/invent some 'evidence' of middle-eastern/islamic culture in sweden.

    I don't know if it's true or not, but if scientists can claim the entire people of an area are black from just one skeleton, and do it without telling us how much of his dna they had, nor tell us why they tried to 'home in' on dna that shows skin colour and eye colour instead of getting an entire genetic profile, nor tell us why one of the scientists felt the need to have his own dna tested and get some genetic markers and send them along with the skeleton's dna sample, nor tell if they were able to test any of his teeth for evidence of the food he ate when he was young (which would tell us whether he was a 'local' or a new immigrant), nor tell us why they did not test any of the other skeletons in the cave, and tell us this skeleton was from one of the first 'Britons' even though neanderthals where here 250,000 years ago I get a bit suspicious that there may be an agenda or may be some incompetence going on.
    'Various videos on Youtube' - sounds like tinfoil hat territory already. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470
    Fretwired said:
    I voted to leave but I don't believe this is true - my eldest son's girlfriend is Hungarian and she is proud of her Hungarian heritage but she loves working in the UK.  The Euro zone needs a flexible labour market to ensure economic stability. This means when one area is economically weak people can move to another area to find work. It actually works very well. Look at the UK - we have attracted workers from all over Europe without whom we'd be in trouble. I don't have a problem with free movement if people come looking for work. I just think a country should be able to manage and control the numbers within reason. France and Germany are coming round to the same way of thinking - its not about banning people but ensuring there are resources (housing, healthcare, schools etc) to cope.
    Which is why as a Remainer I'm also in favour of specific migration numbers. When I lived in Toronto, I saw what happened when you had a migration program that wasn't open but also fought against a government austerity program. Migrants do need help to assimilate. They need help with kids, medical facilities, even something as simple as a service that accredits overseas qualifications and translates them into a Canadian equivalent. If you don't have those programs and support, then the migrants find it a damn sight harder to assimilate and the skills they have aren't utilized. The joke about Toronto having the best educated taxi drivers in the world when I was there was no glib stereotype. I can remember a former IBM executive in India driving me downtown one day. He'd come here, his IT qualifications weren't given any credit, and he had to redo three years worth of basic education simply to get on the ladder, which was what he did when he wasn't driving a cab. My former mother in law, who had been a university professor in Uruguay armed with one PhD then, found the same thing when she came to Toronto. She ended up working in a dry cleaners whilst studying all over again. 

    If a government will not fund a migration program correctly then it does those migrants a disservice. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4213
    Fretwired said:
    Jock68 said:
    Free Movement of People is part of the EU process of removing any sense of culture and sense of Nationhood.  Once both have been removed then everyone is expected to be a European.  It is far easier to manage one group of people with one sense of belonging ( EU German Empire) rather than 28 disparate groups with different agendas..
    I voted to leave but I don't believe this is true - my eldest son's girlfriend is Hungarian and she is proud of her Hungarian heritage but she loves working in the UK.  The Euro zone needs a flexible labour market to ensure economic stability. This means when one area is economically weak people can move to another area to find work. It actually works very well. Look at the UK - we have attracted workers from all over Europe without whom we'd be in trouble. I don't have a problem with free movement if people come looking for work. I just think a country should be able to manage and control the numbers within reason. France and Germany are coming round to the same way of thinking - its not about banning people but ensuring there are resources (housing, healthcare, schools etc) to cope.
    I have 2 reservations about free movement:
    • Any economic bloc with free movement seems to end up with some grossly overpopulated areas, and many depleted areas where poverty is rife and the young simply leave. Surely this is happening now in the EU. It is for Poland, I have already seen stats for that
    • I'm not convinced that the Uk (as a whole) would be in trouble without the large influx recently. Obviously, if public service roles are hard to fill, by all means bring people in, but I think by definition, economic migration typically only benefits the migrants and their employers
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16961
    Why the UK needs migrants ..



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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470

    So we have an industry that relies upon working people to the bone in shitty cold conditions that leave them hurting. Can you blame the young 'uns for not wanting to do that? When you read testimony from 2009 from a chap working for "Europe's leading Grower, Packer, Importer and Exporter of soft fruits, British asparagus and avocados to major retailers worldwide", then would you have wanted to do that? 

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fruit-pickers-the-money-we-earn-is-not-worth-getting-out-of-bed-for-1740216.html

    The issue isn't snowflake British kids or how fab Bulgarians are: it's the shitty working conditions. It would be fair to say that migration has facilitated some totally shitty working practices. A lot of min wage jobs are bloody horrible.

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    I've done fruit and veg picking both here and in Australia (so from the depths of winter to blazing hot sun), it's serious hard work. Now, I grow a lot of what we eat, but if and when I do buy any I buy from several local, cooperatively owned growers, where the workers own the site, they do what they do cos they love doing it and no one is exploited. 
    I know of a lot of people who would also like to set up growers cooperatives, but the cost of land and the low prices paid for products in the supermarkets means they can't. There is a will to grow more in a more ethical manner, but the infrastructure, which is essentially subsidised by cheap, EU labour, won't support it. 
    It's a complex issue, but I don't feel comfortable eating cheap food knowing some poor sod is working 10 hours in the rain and cold to produce it.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16961
    edited February 17

    So we have an industry that relies upon working people to the bone in shitty cold conditions that leave them hurting. Can you blame the young 'uns for not wanting to do that? When you read testimony from 2009 from a chap working for "Europe's leading Grower, Packer, Importer and Exporter of soft fruits, British asparagus and avocados to major retailers worldwide", then would you have wanted to do that? 

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fruit-pickers-the-money-we-earn-is-not-worth-getting-out-of-bed-for-1740216.html

    The issue isn't snowflake British kids or how fab Bulgarians are: it's the shitty working conditions. It would be fair to say that migration has facilitated some totally shitty working practices. A lot of min wage jobs are bloody horrible.

     To the Bulgarians £800 a week is a lot of money. If you watch the whole documentary there's one guy who totally funded himself through medical school by working in British fields. Its one of the benefits of being in the EU  - it benefits both sides. They don't think they are being exploited. Farming is a tough business.

    It's no different to the 1950s and 1960s when bus companies and London Underground couldn't recruit workers. They turned to the Caribbean which had people willing to come over here and fill those vacancies.

    If you want exploitation try Amazon with their zero hours contracts and £3 a delivery for their self-employed drivers, yet I know that 99% of people on this forum use them. I won't.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11470
    edited February 17
    I don't disagree with you on Amazon, Fret. I hate that there are certain things now that you can only get on Amazon because small sellers have been wiped out. It's a very grudging purchase any time I do use Amazon. If it's a few quid more on Ebay, I'll go there for a small seller. 

    Now £800 a week for a Bulgarian veg picker is a good wage. They bloody well earn it. But let's not pretend that everyone gets that. There is a lot of exploitation. Overseas workers in the care industry is another area where there is huge exploitation. Farming is tough. With supermarkets hammering farmers for their produce and paying rock bottom prices, then companies are looking for cheap workers. 

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16961
    I don't disagree with you on Amazon, Fret. I hate that there are certain things now that you can only get on Amazon because small sellers have been wiped out. It's a very grudging purchase any time I do use Amazon. If it's a few quid more on Ebay, I'll go there for a small seller. 

    Now £800 a week for a Bulgarian veg picker is a good wage. They bloody well earn it. But let's not pretend that everyone gets that. There is a lot of exploitation. Overseas workers in the care industry is another area where there is huge exploitation. 

    Yep .. I'd add care workers to Amazon ..
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