Why some people voted for Brexit - when free movement affects people's lives

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  • hywelg said:
    To those who think parliament is supreme this is the hierarchy of democracy in this country.

    1. The will of the people expressed in both referenda and general/bi-elections. 
    2. Elected representatives are supposed to represent the views of all their constituents in parliament. Too often these representatives go rogue and follow their "conscience" or the party line where it differs from the will of their constituents. 
    3. Governments follow the manifesto that the elected representatives were voted in on and create/modify laws and regulations n order to manage the country. Only they often go "off piste" and wing it with new plans and ideas. The current situation allows for governments to be voted down and general elections forced. And of course they are forced to reapply for a mandate periodically. 
    That's the way we the people get to control what happens in our name. 

    Now compare that to the EU. How do we get rid of Juncker?.  How do our elected MEP's change or influence the bureaucracy that proposes new laws. Answer, they don't. That's the national heads of state and their unelected commissioners. And note, those that pay the bills have no overriding say or veto so the UK is one of 28. 

    That's the democratic deficit we have suffered under.


    Strictly speaking sovereignty in the UK rests not with Parliament but rather with the Crown in Parliament. This is a constitutional monarchy remember. No popular sovereignty here. In criminal court you face not the people but the Crown.

    In the EU the parliament has the power to boot out the Commission. And while it's true that the Commission has an effective monopoly on the right to initiate legislation it is nevertheless restrained in practice by the Member States. Plenty of legislative initatives get killed off or never get off the ground because of a lack of consensus among member states (e.g. bank ring fencing or financial transaction tax).

    To my mind, if anything delegitmises the European Parliament it is the consistently low levels of participation in EU parliament elections. It's a shame because the EU parliament wields considerable influence on legislative proposals once initiated. Much more so than our elected representatives at Westminster where FPTP and a decent majority with effective whipping produces legislative tyranny and reduces Parliament to a rubber stamping chamber. (I admit that the dynamic today is rather different thanks to the June election).

    Within the Council of the EU qualified majorities suffice in most areas today but unanimity is still required in certain areas (e.g. On matters that go to security) such that any Member State can exercise a veto in those areas. No faceless or unelected bureaucrat imposed the expansion of QMV. All the Member States agreed to it.

    There is a democratic deficit in the EU but it's not as large as it's sometimes made out to be. Equally, there are democratic deficits in the UK domestic system that are frequently overlooked or minimised.

    Those who think Brexit will make government feel more proximate and accountable to them are on a road to disappointment.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16231


    There is a democratic deficit in the EU but it's not as large as it's sometimes made out to be. Equally, there are democratic deficits in the UK domestic system that are frequently overlooked or minimised.

    Those who think Brexit will make government feel more proximate and accountable to them are on a road to disappointment.

    There's a massive democratic deficit in the EU. Take one area economic policy. The needs of Germany and the Eurozone outweigh anything else. Economic policy has to support the Euro at all costs hence massive QE from the Central Bank which has ruined the economies of many EU members and thrown millions out of work.

    The Greece was was a case in point. The French and German banks were bankrupt but EU rules meant the French and German governments couldn't bail them out. Greece owed the French and German banks a lot of money so France and Germany and other EU countries lent Greece money which immediately went to the French and German banks to recapitalise them. Result - misery for Greece whilst France and Germany bent the rules.

    The EU parliament was effectively sidelined.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 1225
    The not legally binding thing is irrelevant really.  Parliament does not have ultimate power technically as Lords can veto anything they do and even if they force their way through the Lords in theory the queen has the final say.

    However as Charles I found out vetoing parliaments will doesn't end well, parliament would never refuse to go through with the referendum result, fair chance of ending up against the wall with a blindfold on listening to the firing squad's rendition of "for he's a jolly good fellow!"
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16231
    munckee said:
    The not legally binding thing is irrelevant really.  Parliament does not have ultimate power technically as Lords can veto anything they do and even if they force their way through the Lords in theory the queen has the final say.

    However as Charles I found out vetoing parliaments will doesn't end well, parliament would never refuse to go through with the referendum result, fair chance of ending up against the wall with a blindfold on listening to the firing squad's rendition of "for he's a jolly good fellow!"
    The Commons can ultimately overrule the Lords and the monarch's assent is a 'formality' - they can't say no.

    The Parliament Acts have provided one House, the House of Commons, with an advantage. If a bill begins in the House of Commons and fails to become an Act of Parliament because it was not agreed to by the House of Lords and, the following year the Lords still refuses to agree the text, the House of Commons can use the Parliament Act to send the text originally sent to the Lords for Royal Assent. In other words, the elected House has the ability to over-rule the appointed House.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 1225
    Yep like I said they can force it through but how often does that happen.  Point was despite not being legally binding it would be political suicide to come and say the will of the people has been over ridden and no party would do it.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16231
    munckee said:
    Yep like I said they can force it through but how often does that happen.  Point was despite not being legally binding it would be political suicide to come and say the will of the people has been over ridden and no party would do it.
    It's been done loads of times, but in reality the Lords backs down.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 234
    rlw said:
    p90fool said:
    Plenty of people from provincial towns around England move to London and do exactly that, are you going to forcibly repatriate them? 
    Can we?  Please.....
    Don't worry folks, rlw was once terrified by a 'Notherner' who just said 'Hello'.
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  • ClashmanClashman Frets: 142
    Was wondering about Hatfield as I had never heard of it so I looked on youtube and now I know ..


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